ASVS - Hive of Scum and Villainy

After recently being astonished to discover that a bit of Vs. Debate was actually going on at ASVS (instead of just more of the spam I'd seen over the past couple of years), I was reading some of the messages earlier as I worked on updating the SW canon quote disputes page. Give that a peek.

It was like a breath of foul air, seeing the same old BS being employed by the old-timers like Graeme Dice. Attempted distractions via personal attacks, hypocrisy, message-swarms, and general BS gamesmanship designed to allow one to (at least publicly) evade even having to consider the facts still reign supreme there. It was so familiar I was almost tempted to post if even just to mock, but if you think I trust those threat-wielding psychos with so much as my IP address you can think again.

However, I did have to e-mail the participant there, because it was all so familiar. Most of the below won't make sense unless you at least peruse the last couple of days of messages there, but here we go:

Dear sweet justice, they are annoying aren't they?

I was reviewing your thread there while working on updating some canon-related pages, and came across the past couple of days of new material. As "Lord Edam" has suggested elsewhere, they like to lie and try to wear you out by making you revisit old territory. I was getting pissed off just reading that . . . be sure you don't let them give you a coronary. It's like arguing with a clever orator who rejects gravity, except (unlike with gravity) they have no reason to accept the facts in this case, ever, so their only goal is to play the game of evading the truth by any means necessary.

Some of the most egregious BS I saw:

1. "You made the claim that George Lucas said "EU is a parallel separate
universe." George Lucas has never stated that."

This comes from the fellow who has the audacity to call you a "semantics whore". Given that he is calling you a liar for making an obvious (and perfectly accurate) paraphrase, it's clear that the only semantics whore (and hypocritical scumbag) is he himself.

2. Inside sources

Who is this magic inside source who can single-handedly override Lucas? Oh, wait, silly me . . . that can't happen. The very fact that he is making the claim is appallingly sad.

3. 'Rings occur on all large vessels, like the Rebel ships'

Yeah, when shot with the Death Star . . . but he's 'conveniently' forgetting that an ISD explodes in RoTJ with no ring, and (why look!) it wasn't shot with the Death Star. Of course, this has been one of my main points for years, but he can't be bothered with little things like facts.

In short, their efforts continue to be absolutely ludicrous. They have cultivated stupidity into a fine art, though, I'll give them that.

Just had to share.

Spiffy-Tech and the End of the Vs. Debate

As modern technology has improved and we've begun to see some extraordinary things just over the horizon, I've often contemplated the end of the Vs. Debate.

In the not-so-distant future, nano- and other technology advances will bring possibilities largely undreamt of in either Trek or Wars, both of which will rapidly become anachronistic, technologically speaking. The problem is actually going to be worse for Trek, given that there have been so many more hours of it, hours in which technological details have been mentioned. However, it will affect both quite thoroughly.

Take, for instance, simple things like reports. On multiple occasions in Trek, we've seen people tasked with carrying a report to another part of the ship on an electronic padd . . . most notably in "Good Shepherd"[VOY6], but also in TOS (Yeoman Rand) and "Tapestry"[TNG6].

In large degree, this sort of thing was anachronistic when it was written . . . even by TNG6 e-mail was sufficiently prevalent that I can't imagine the writers (even the paper-and-pen Ira Behr) didn't know about it. Certainly it would be more efficient to transmit a report directly to someone else's console or place it on some sort of central shipboard server instead of having some poor guy physically carry a laptop-analogue to another part of the ship.

Of course, we can invent excuses for this sort of anachronism, such as it being a preventative measure against eavesdropping on shipboard signals. Of course, one of the promises of quantum computing is quantum cryptography, which would theoretically make eavesdropping impossible. But, the history of cryptography (not to mention the existence of subspace doohickeys) would suggest that a way might be found around that, assuming quantum cryptography is even employed in Trek.

(Incidentally, eavesdropping-avoidance is why I always liked the whited-out windows on the older physical and low-res CGI models. In truth it was merely because they couldn't show the interiors easily until the CGI ability and budgets got high enough. But personally, I liked the idea of a "white-out option" since, after all, if you're looking at important ship data you'd hardly want to let the enemy simply peek in your window! And just think of the windows of certain quarters on the Enterprise-D that are within line-of-sight of other windows . . . voyeurs would rejoice!)

Similarly, both Trek and Wars have weapons with various sorts of small scope mechanism, little scanners or whatnot with tiny screens, and other similar things. The basic idea is that of hand-held tools that don't obscure the face of the actor. However, even today we're well on our way to tiny hologram generators that would be far more useful than the tiny screen of a tricorder or the vague, zoomless aiming that comes from a handheld pistol or especially a Type I phaser. They could also be used for augmented reality systems . . . or, alternately, a tricorder-like device (using ultra-wideband and other techniques could be worn visor-like over the eyes or as a helmet. Or, as long as we're at it, just go ahead and do a direct overlay-projection into the eye (or from within via nanotech).

Just imagine the difference between traipsing through the woods on some alien planet looking down every few seconds to check your tricorder as you look for some alien object (not to mention lifesigns of your enemies) versus having a display right in front of you that not only gives you a constant reference of which way to head, but will also pull up little target boxes and show you an augmented view of your surroundings with that badguy behind the tree clearly visible. And then, imagine if that were tied in to your weapon so that you could see exactly where you were aiming even if you were aiming from the hip.

Now picture that happening at night.

(Of course, at night and in a situation of stealth I'd rather have a projectile weapon with a flash suppressor as opposed to a phaser or blaster.)

I'm reminded of a paper I recently read that touched on some of the tactical issues regarding the Winter War between Russia and Finland, which (along with the Continuation War) is an often-forgotten conflict from during WW2. In the paper, we hear of how, during the frigid December of 1939, a Russian motorized division (tanks and other heavies) was basically completely wiped out by a bunch of loggers on skis. The Finns, more experienced with dealing with the bitter cold, could approach quietly at night on the powdery snow via their skis and, shooting from the hip with their Suomi submachine guns, pick off the invaders. Naturally, their only real lighting was from the Russian campfires . . . moonlight was generally scarce in mid-December 1939 (-1938 on the chart).

(Though most people in the modern electrified era with its bright city lights have little conception of just how dark night can really be and thus how well one could probably see on a snow-covered terrain reflecting even a moon-sliver's light, it remains true in the final analysis that it was pretty damned dark.)

Ignoring the enhanced mobility of the Finnish skiers versus the non-skiing Russians being forced to wade and trudge through the deep powder, there's still the fact that they were firing on the enemy at night in hit-and-run attacks, perhaps even 'ski-by shootings'. The Finns favored shooting from the hip with the Suomi, since even the "smokeless" powder would produce enough of a cloud to foul up one's efforts at aiming from the shoulder pretty quickly. Just imagine how much more effective they could've been even with modern night-vision, not to mention a full augmented reality system like the type described above.

But I digress . . .

In short, the writers were generally bound by the limitations of the technology during the time they wrote (or at least the popular knowledge of it), along with some Hollywood-specific limitations . . . hence all the macroscopic components, handheld devices, and so on. Indeed, one of the great things about television and film is that you can actually show some really cool stuff . . . but one of the perils of television and film is that you can't go on talking about it if you're trying to tell a story.

For instance, imagine if Riker walked into a briefing with his sleeve rolled up, incessantly tapping a finger at his exposed arm. The camera closes in and we see him hard at work pressing padd-like touch-screen buttons and making a video display on his arm change. It would look absurd, of course, but that sort of thing isn't too terribly far away.

That would certainly be one way to have a padd on you while also roaming about on an observation mission of some 20th-Century-or-less society, wouldn't it?

Of course, some of the Trek and Wars anachronisms would be intentional. For instance, there's the 'dataport' as seen on DS9, a device allowing direct neural interface with a computer and even mind-to-mind contact (leading to 'net-girl' non-physical prostitution . . . evidently dataports are more advanced than the Prytt psionic neural transceiver from "Attached"[TNG7]). This concept has appeared elsewhere, of course . . . perhaps the most useful version I know of was in 3001, where Arthur C. Clarke mentions that everyone uses "braincaps" which allow a person to directly access all the information of the world, and are self-aware secretaries besides. I don't know of any current research that will give us something that advanced, but I can certainly understand why a person might not want to have one, and why it wouldn't be a good idea to solely rely on it. (On the other hand, I could get a helluva-lot more work done if I didn't have to type everything out, for although I'm a helluva-speedy typist it still takes time. And of course, it's remarkable how quickly we come to rely on things that start out as merely helpful. Cellphones, anyone?)

But that brings us to my final point for the moment. In the end, one of the things from either franchise that will continue to be relevant (beyond the entertainment value of the basic storylines) will be the Borg. In an age where people could integrate and internalize technology into their person to that extent, the concept of holding on to one's humanity will become increasingly important. Thus, although Trek and Wars tech will probably look pretty backwards in a few years (not counting things like hyperdrive and excessive energy production), the two might yet have a little bit of relevance for the future.

The TNG Space Hippies Theory

A thought I've been toying with for the past few months . . .

As mentioned previously, the first war between the Cardassian Union and the UFP appears to have occurred from 2358-2362.

Consider the first couple of seasons of TNG (which starts in 2364) . . . the crew simply does not appear to be a war-hardened force. If anything, they act more like space hippies then quasi-military officers . . . Riker believing combat training to be a "minor province" in the make-up of a starship captain, Picard avoiding holding actual wargames, and so on. There are several examples wherein the idea of 'a generally-peaceful aim' would be a bit of an understatement. This isn't a bad thing in a time which can support it, mind you, but it was almost as if there was a cultivated naivete at times. Certainly it was a much different era than Kirk's TOS.

I think there is a relationship between that era and the Cardassian conflict. From Mosaic, we know that as of 2351 there hadn't been a war or other significant conflict for decades . . . the word "war" was hoped obsolete.

We also know of the Talarian border skirmishes (where the Talarians, near Cardassian space, are a remarkably low-tech people), the Tzenkethi war (apparently of the early 2360's), and so on.

Also, as noted on the Setlik III page in the Tech Archives, the first known use of the TNG pajamas was sometime between 2349 and 2354.

(And you never know . . . there might be a relationship there, too. The militaristic uniforms of the latter-TMP era, worn throughout the first half of the 2300's, might've helped cause some other races to blink faster than they would if the Federation showed up in one-piece speedo pajamas.)

If war was thought obsolete and evidence of unenlightenment . . . if the Federation hadn't been tested in real war for decades . . . if they showed up in pajamas . . . if they seemed to blink out of a spirit of conciliatory friendliness . . . if Earth was a paradise and the rest of the Federation seemed to be following suit quite nicely, with troubles minor . . . then the Federation's adversaries might've taken these things as a sign of weakness. "They are unprepared."

(Certainly if some backwards fartcatchers like the Talarians start rattling sabers with you, you know that you're not projecting anything resembling fear, nor are you absorbing such a society as a member anytime soon.)

In short, I would argue that the first half of the 24th Century saw a steady decline in the rather more martial philosophies of the mid-to-late 23rd Century. Those more martial philosophies were borne of the cold war with the Klingons at the time.

(Indeed, I think the Klingons are why the remarkably TNG-esque Earth Starfleet of the early 2150's were able to become the mid-23rd Century Federation Starfleet. Sure, the Romulans brought everyone together in war, but it was the decades-long cold war with the Klingons that really kept the Federation on its toes.)

After Organia and the eventual peace with the Klingons beginning in the 2290's, there just wasn't the same impetus anymore, and by the early-to-mid-2300's the hippyism had begun. To be sure, we know that during the 2340's the Federation got worried about the Cardassians, but worry is not a direct lead-in to a return to martial philosophies.

It's possible that no one recognized that three separate "western" powers challenged the Federation at the same time for the same reasons . . . this may simply have been viewed as a necessary 'taming of the west'.

In short, the Federation became complacent, and despite a brief spat of trouble with a few rabble-rousers in the west, they really never had much cause to question their complacency.

With the end of the western conflicts of the 2350's and early 2360's, then, it was a new dawning of the Age of Aquarius . . . harmony and understanding, sympathy and trust abounding, no more false or dark derisions, and so on. After all, the west was tame and they'd all soon see the light, the Romulans were being quiet, and by damn even the Klingons are friends! The only real worry was the Ferengi, but even they turned out to be a non-threat.

In other words, the early 2360's resembled the late 1960's in the United States. Sure, there were still hardasses around, but even the hardasses were pleased that the trials of the 2350's were over and might've secretly hoped that all would be well for a long long while.

Of course, as we now know, the idea was wrong. The return of the Romulans in late 2364 got a few balls rolling, but it was the "kick in our complacency" that the Borg produced (thanks Q) which resulted in a scare real enough that the non-warship-building Federation came out with the Defiant Class.

(Had the Federation encountered the wormhole and the Dominion circa 2364, I don't think they would've had the spirit to win.)

============

In any case, that's the general gist of my idea as to why there's such a gap between the attitudes in early TNG versus late-TNG / DS9. The ideals are still there, but there's a more realistic approach that, while perhaps not working as well at times, has certain merits.

Of further interest would be the period around 2380 or so, with the end of the devastating Dominion War. I can't help but wonder how the Federation's attitude would be circa 2400.

Hull Temperature Data

In "Coda"[VOY3], we get to see yet another Voyager shuttle crash. The shuttle Sacajawea, variously shown as a Type-6 or a Type-8 shuttlecraft, encounters a powerful and sudden ion storm disturbance in the atmosphere of some planet or other.

After taking a series of ion lightning hits, the shuttle loses attitude control and navigational systems. Janeway soon reports:

"Altitude: 12 kilometers. Hull temperature: 4,000 degrees. We have to reduce speed!"

That would seem to imply that they were nearing some maximum tolerance . . . though I suppose it could also refer to simply slowing down before colliding with a planet.

Also, in Mosaic[VOY], we get some Voyager-specific hull temperatures. The highest stated maximum is 17,000 degrees, though we do hear of minutes passing between the 14,000 and 15,000 degree marks, along with a number of minutes on the way up to 14,000. The hull doesn't boil off and there's no mention of permanent damage (though it does get up to 62 degrees on the bridge), so this is apparently a readily-survivable (though probably highly-inadvisable) hull temperature.

Also, I've updated the Tech Archives with some unfinished materials from Pathways and Mosaic, as part of continuing work on defining and dating the Cardassian Conflict (with the war still appearing to fall in the 2358-2362 timeframe). Check it out here.

Dominion War Convoys

" . . . With the safe arrival of the convoy PQ1 to the Vegan system, our escort duties are now complete, and I've set course for home."

That's from "The Sound of Her Voice"[DSN6]. That implies that at maximum, there could be 6,760 convoys by such a numbering scheme (26 x 26 x 10), with that one being the 2,721st, more likely than not.

Of course, the idea of a convoy going toward Vega (i.e. awfully close to Earth) doesn't make that much sense.

But just for kicks, we know that a convoy in "Waltz"[DSN6] was carrying 30,000 troops. If each convoy carried that many, then the total Federation ground force could number 81,630,000 troops.

Note that this is just a number . . . not a maximum, minimum, or recommended estimate.

Remarkable Applicability

Still such an excellent quote:

"Gradually the Greeks lost their brilliance, which had been as the bright freshness of early youth. This is painfully obvious in their literature, if not in other forms of art. Their initiative vanished; they ceased to create and began to comment. Patriotism, with rare exceptions, became an empty name, for few had the high spirit and energy to translate into action man's duty to the State. Vacillation, indecision, fitful outbursts of unhealthy activity followed by cowardly depression, selfish cruelty, and criminal weakness are characteristic of the public life of Greece from the struggle with Macedonia to the final conquest by the arms of Rome. No one can fail to be struck by the marked difference between the period from Marathon to the Peloponnesian War and the period from Alexander to Mummius. Philosophy also suffered, and became deeply pessimistic even in the hands of its best and noblest exponents. 'Absence of feeling,' 'absence of care'--such were the highest goals of human endeavour."

From Malaria and Greek History, 1909

Canon Wars revision

My overview and replies to the EU Completist responses to the Starlog quote are incomplete, I'm afraid. The weekend was simply too lovely weather-wise for me to even dream of staying indoors. But, I did remember this evening that I was going to try to get that done, at which point I started appending the info to the "Quote-Specific Argument Overview". This, of course, was a mistake, because man that thing is out of date. And thus a general update to that page is underway, and will include the Starlog bits.

In brief, though, the 'strongest' counterclaim . . . or perhaps (given the general absence of strength) the term 'meatiest' should be used . . . is from the ASVS thread wherein they simply try to use the old "intrude" bit. (In other words, they try to reinterpret the 2002 Cinescape quote by taking the word "intrude" and discarding or otherwise ignoring the context. That sort of 'reasoning' has long since been dealt with on the Quote-Specific Arguments page.

At ASVS, that merged with the claim which sounds great, but has no meat at all. The 'Production Defense', as I call it, is the claim that every time Lucas speaks of parallel universes he is only referring to either (a) the act of film-making vs. publishing/gamecrafting/et cetera, or (b) the people who engage in the latter.

There's no particular logic behind the claim that I can see, and indeed that's the very claim that I can't seem to get any of them to explain the rationale behind. It basically runs like this:

Them: "He's just talking about production."
Me: "How so?"
Them: "He's talking about production."
Me: "And you came to this conclusion because . . . "
Them: "Because he's talking about production."
Me: ('fro-slap)

Anyway, more to come