Quick Notes, Personal Observations, and Other Vs. Debate Miscellany
2006-02-05
Probe Droid Objections
Just a little quickie . . . here is a work-in-progress version of the Probe Droid objections page. Unfortunately that's all the time the weekend has allowed. More to come.
10 comments:
Anonymous
said...
More to come? Would that be more lies like your falsehood about what is and is not in the Radio Drama? You assert with no support that the passage with the three systems referred to is not in the radio drama, when anyone who can do a cursory google search can see that it is, in scene 1-2. You then quoted scene 1-1. Tsk tsk tsk ... I suppose the sites that come up on google are all part of the grande warsie conspiracy against you.
Another possible cop-out: The probe transmitted the image of the shield generator back, not lifesigns. (You gotta guess that a shield that powerful is going to put off some kind of detectable signal) Maybe the Empire only equipped the probe droids with power-detecting sensors? That'd make the "I didn't see you behind that PILE OF SNOW until you yelled at me" bit a little less pathetic. (Then again, we saw hand-held lifeform detectors in the same movie (Droid-mounted too, come to think of it), so it can't be that complex tech. Probably most of that bulk was batteries and display systems, which the probe doesn't need or has already) (Then again then again, they both failed at finding Luke. A bunch of humans, aliens, and droids in a warm base is probably a bit easier to detect than a nearly frozen guy in a snowstorm though.)
One line of reasoning against this is that it's not clear (at least I can't remember) if the rebels had the shields up before the star destroyers showed up. If the shield was off, it probably wouldn't be as detectable by probe or orbiting ISS. (Assuming they can just switch a power source that big on and off. A pretty big assumption, I think)
Anonymous, since you're (A) making a ridiculous claim (incidentally, one parroted from SD.Net) with (B) accusations of dishonesty based on the fact that you (C) can't read, I can only assume that you're an idiot.
Googling isn't going to get you the audio of the scene . . . just the script. The script is not canon, and does not conform to what was on the radio. I have the versions listened to by 250,000+ folks on the radio (at least in reference to the ANH RD), and it just isn't there.
I know you guys want to pretend that scripts are auto-canonized . . . an amusingly convenient new assumption on your part. And I know you want to pretend that maybe the one-off Limited Collector's Edition of 7500 copies made ten years ago is somehow "more canon" like a Special Edition re-release.
That reminds me, I should see if my old cassette recordings of the radio drama are still intact... I had them around somewhere, but I don't think I've listened to them in the past decade. They're probably not still playable.
For those interested in double-checking without resorting to bootleg copies, you can get the official audio CDs of the radio drama on Amazon.
Wayne Poe has already informed them that the quote does not appear in the radio drama. However, he claims that he possesses one of the 7500 Limited Collector's Edition copies and that it is included there.
Hence their push to argue that the radio drama scripts are canon and that the LCE is equal to a Special Edition of one of the films, as opposed to the one-off that hasn't been seen again. The fact that they're still selling the original radio versions on StarWars.com is irrelevant in their minds.
Frankly, I find the whole thing rather sad on their part. They are trying to rewrite the films via lesser canon . . . little different than their usual methods of rewriting it via the EU. They just refuse to accept the facts of the case and instead are trying to ignore the probe droid's many limitations with a few bogus claims on a few minor sub-parts. And of course they're forced to support these claims by arguing the rules of canon, claiming an enhanced status for lesser- and non-canon materials.
The utility of the radio dramas has always been limited at best. I mean, if one wants to put RD author Brian Daley at the top of the Star Wars food chain that's fine. However, that isn't Lucas's Star Wars. These aren't the novelizations receiving a line-item veto from Lucas, for instance, and with the exception of Rostoni at Licensing (circa 1994 and 2003 IIRC) we've never had any suggestion that the radio dramas were canon at all. Compare that to the number of times novelizations have been mentioned (Rostoni, Cerasi via Sansweet, et al.).
Hence my view that the radio dramas are "provisionally" canon, provided one realizes that they're basically just grandfathered in due to widescale popular knowledge of the Rostoni and Kausch's 1994 Insider comment, which was really the only widely-known comment on canon for a long time. As I note on my "Layers of Canon" page, the RDs are only really useful for additional clarification regarding existing scenes, and not for the new material.
The opposition, of course, would have you believe that the scripts of the radio dramas are canon. But really, why stop there? Aren't earlier versions of the scripts basically scripts-of-scripts? Or, how about novels . . . why not earlier versions of them? And since author thoughts go into making a book, why not include the author's opinions as canon? (I'm sure they'd love that, since it would make Saxton's Technical Commentaries canon.)
In short, it's a slippery slope. You can either acknowledge that such-and-such is canon because so-and-so said so and go no further, or else you abandon the pretense of having an analytical method and just start canonizing things yourself.
Of course, in reality the latter simply means you're just inserting things into your own personal codex. The canon is an entirely different animal.
If the SD.Netters want the RD scripts in their collective codex, that's cool. More power to them. However, that has jack to do with the canon.
Anyway, in my opinion their attempt to turn this to an issue of canon basically means they've left the field. The evidence . . . the REAL evidence . . . is clear, and no amount of whining is going to change it.
There are sooo many problems with this page, just to mention a few of them (I'll mix some of the Objections page with some of the page in question):
>>...wampas who don't seem to find tauntauns appetizing in the first place. As such, the two are most likely from different worlds altogether.<<
Was that why we saw the Tauntaun get startled by the presence of the Wampa, the Tauntaun skeleton in the Wampa's lair and the said Wampa eating Luke's Tauntaun. I don't eat chicken, so I must be from Mars, right?
>>Some have expressed a bit of confusion regarding the evidence above, countering that the probe capsule whose course we seem to follow after launch heads down and to the starboard of the ISD and, in the rear view, apparently toward deep space. However, as seen in the next shot, the probe takes a curving course toward the planet's surface. Given the grand sweeping curves that so often figure into orbital mechanics, it is unsurprising that the probe did not start by heading straight in and then suddenly curving.<<
So where did these other probes, that weren't followed, go? (Probes that incidentally went into the direction where DSG2k claims Hoth is).
Besides, if the ISD was on top of the base, don't you think they would've detected each other? In ROTS, despite the interference that the volcanism is said to produce, we see that the sensors of the Mustafar installation picks up Padmé's small ship more than a planetary diameter away (the screen to the right of Sidious during the Vader/Sidious discussion.
>>simple snow the Wookiee was hiding behind<<
No, it's not "simple snow", but in reality thick rocks covered in snow (which is evident on the pictures of the probe droid firing: http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWprobedroid.html )
>>And finally, we have the film itself, where seeing that the Star Destroyer is very near the planet is almost as easy as one-two-three.<<
No, the planet is nowhere to be seen. The probe heads off into deep space (and then we have the aforementioned other probes that went other directions). To say that the radio drama EU is very convenient when the said ESB radio drama containing the scenes that originally was cut for timing is still being sold. We've seen similar arrangements in other SW movies as well (and the color of the stellar objects are different).
>>As noted earlier, the probe capsule is little larger than the ball of a TIE fighter cockpit. Given that TIEs are not hyperspace-equipped, it follows that vehicles of similar size would be similarly handicapped.<<
TIE-fighters are short-range fighters and has something called pilots.
>>Whereas we were kind enough to find a way to rationalize the primitive landing...<<
What would've happened if Luke had spotted the Probe Droid coming down in parachutes or braked in a non-conventional way (for a meteorite)? How would he have reported that? All the Empire would've found then would've been an empty base.
>>The droid managed to hit the wampa, doing so with a beam that quickly killed it and soon burned it down altogether. The wampa was totally disintegrated in some unknown number of "seconds". If we assume that this is less than a minute, then we have what may be the most profound example of small arms firepower in the entire Star Wars canon, and by a comfortable margin.<<
The novelization says "seconds", not anything close to a minute.
No, it's not "simple snow", but in reality thick rocks covered in snow (which is evident on the pictures of the probe droid firing: http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWprobedroid.html ) Show me where you see the rock then.
It certainly isn't visible on the screenshots availble on the linked page.
As you can see, it's a large outcropping that's between Chewie's cover and the snow (note: not the rock to the left in the foreground). Han is sheltered behind such rock also.
So where did these other probes, that weren't followed, go? (Probes that incidentally went into the direction where DSG2k claims Hoth is). Maybe they went to Hoth. The Imperial Probe Droid didn't exactly seem to be very fast so they might want to have a few to cover the planet.
Not to mention that the Hoth system probably has other planets (Hoth IV mean anything to anyone?) which the Evil Empire might have wanted to probe (though I don't see them sending a probe to a gas giant).
Besides, if the ISD was on top of the base, don't you think they would've detected each other? Maybe it wasn't. Maybe it was on the other side of the damn planet from where the Rebels were.
Maybe Imperial sensors suck.
In ROTS, despite the interference that the volcanism is said to produce, we see that the sensors of the Mustafar installation picks up Padmé's small ship more than a planetary diameter away (the screen to the right of Sidious during the Vader/Sidious discussion. The interference caused by volcanism doesn't compare to ten thousand kilometres of rock and metal blocking the sensors.
No, the planet is nowhere to be seen. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it isn't there. There is good reason to believe that the Star Destroyer was very close to Hoth due to the moons (and the planet being off a bit to the side).
The probe heads off into deep space (and then we have the aforementioned other probes that went other directions). The probe heads to Hoth and the other probes might be going to other places on Hoth or other planets in the system.
TIE-fighters are short-range fighters and has something called pilots. True, but they do lack hyperdrive as well as most of the sensor equipment that a Probe Droid would have.
Not to mention that the probe droid is about the size of a pilot.
What would've happened if Luke had spotted the Probe Droid coming down in parachutes or braked in a non-conventional way (for a meteorite)? How would he have reported that? All the Empire would've found then would've been an empty base. Since this is Star Trek versus Star Trek why don't we figure out what the Federation could do if they wanted to spy on an Imperial installation.
The self replicating minefield used to blockade the Wormhole consisted on clocked mines of the order of a metre in size. They also have replicators, a warhead, thrusters and a computer. Let's take one, remove the replicators and warhead, maybe add some antigrav thrusters for planetary use and some extra sensors and comms equipment and you get the Federation equivalent of the Imperial probe droid.
Only a hell of a lot better. For example instead of looking like a meteor it wouldn't even been seen on the approach (if you have enough Δv (say from an efficient sublight propulsion system or antigravs) you can completely avoid a hot re-entry). It would also not be shot at since it wouldn't be seen in the first place and would also be able to transmit a lot more detail (given that Federation sensors are better).
Giving something that small a warp drive might be a bit hard with all the other stuff it's got but that should not be held against Star Trek since the Star Wars version doesn't have a hyperdrive (if it did why would they launch from so close to Hoth and risk giving away the fact that they were searching for the Rebels? (a rebel base operating at low power (which they would do whenever they could if they were competant (a general trait of the Rebels)) and carefully concealed would probably be harder to detect than a Starship in orbit that lacks a cloaking device making "Rebels detect Star Destroyer, Star Destroyer doesn't see Rebels" quite a likely outcome (the Empire really got lucky there))) and the sublight propulsion of the Federation is vastly superior.
10 comments:
More to come? Would that be more lies like your falsehood about what is and is not in the Radio Drama? You assert with no support that the passage with the three systems referred to is not in the radio drama, when anyone who can do a cursory google search can see that it is, in scene 1-2. You then quoted scene 1-1. Tsk tsk tsk ... I suppose the sites that come up on google are all part of the grande warsie conspiracy against you.
Another possible cop-out: The probe transmitted the image of the shield generator back, not lifesigns. (You gotta guess that a shield that powerful is going to put off some kind of detectable signal)
Maybe the Empire only equipped the probe droids with power-detecting sensors? That'd make the "I didn't see you behind that PILE OF SNOW until you yelled at me" bit a little less pathetic. (Then again, we saw hand-held lifeform detectors in the same movie (Droid-mounted too, come to think of it), so it can't be that complex tech. Probably most of that bulk was batteries and display systems, which the probe doesn't need or has already) (Then again then again, they both failed at finding Luke. A bunch of humans, aliens, and droids in a warm base is probably a bit easier to detect than a nearly frozen guy in a snowstorm though.)
One line of reasoning against this is that it's not clear (at least I can't remember) if the rebels had the shields up before the star destroyers showed up. If the shield was off, it probably wouldn't be as detectable by probe or orbiting ISS. (Assuming they can just switch a power source that big on and off. A pretty big assumption, I think)
Anonymous, since you're (A) making a ridiculous claim (incidentally, one parroted from SD.Net) with (B) accusations of dishonesty based on the fact that you (C) can't read, I can only assume that you're an idiot.
Googling isn't going to get you the audio of the scene . . . just the script. The script is not canon, and does not conform to what was on the radio. I have the versions listened to by 250,000+ folks on the radio (at least in reference to the ANH RD), and it just isn't there.
I know you guys want to pretend that scripts are auto-canonized . . . an amusingly convenient new assumption on your part. And I know you want to pretend that maybe the one-off Limited Collector's Edition of 7500 copies made ten years ago is somehow "more canon" like a Special Edition re-release.
Both of those ideas are absurd.
That reminds me, I should see if my old cassette recordings of the radio drama are still intact... I had them around somewhere, but I don't think I've listened to them in the past decade. They're probably not still playable.
For those interested in double-checking without resorting to bootleg copies, you can get the official audio CDs of the radio drama on Amazon.
Wayne Poe has already informed them that the quote does not appear in the radio drama. However, he claims that he possesses one of the 7500 Limited Collector's Edition copies and that it is included there.
Hence their push to argue that the radio drama scripts are canon and that the LCE is equal to a Special Edition of one of the films, as opposed to the one-off that hasn't been seen again. The fact that they're still selling the original radio versions on StarWars.com is irrelevant in their minds.
Frankly, I find the whole thing rather sad on their part. They are trying to rewrite the films via lesser canon . . . little different than their usual methods of rewriting it via the EU. They just refuse to accept the facts of the case and instead are trying to ignore the probe droid's many limitations with a few bogus claims on a few minor sub-parts. And of course they're forced to support these claims by arguing the rules of canon, claiming an enhanced status for lesser- and non-canon materials.
The utility of the radio dramas has always been limited at best. I mean, if one wants to put RD author Brian Daley at the top of the Star Wars food chain that's fine. However, that isn't Lucas's Star Wars. These aren't the novelizations receiving a line-item veto from Lucas, for instance, and with the exception of Rostoni at Licensing (circa 1994 and 2003 IIRC) we've never had any suggestion that the radio dramas were canon at all. Compare that to the number of times novelizations have been mentioned (Rostoni, Cerasi via Sansweet, et al.).
Hence my view that the radio dramas are "provisionally" canon, provided one realizes that they're basically just grandfathered in due to widescale popular knowledge of the Rostoni and Kausch's 1994 Insider comment, which was really the only widely-known comment on canon for a long time. As I note on my "Layers of Canon" page, the RDs are only really useful for additional clarification regarding existing scenes, and not for the new material.
The opposition, of course, would have you believe that the scripts of the radio dramas are canon. But really, why stop there? Aren't earlier versions of the scripts basically scripts-of-scripts? Or, how about novels . . . why not earlier versions of them? And since author thoughts go into making a book, why not include the author's opinions as canon? (I'm sure they'd love that, since it would make Saxton's Technical Commentaries canon.)
In short, it's a slippery slope. You can either acknowledge that such-and-such is canon because so-and-so said so and go no further, or else you abandon the pretense of having an analytical method and just start canonizing things yourself.
Of course, in reality the latter simply means you're just inserting things into your own personal codex. The canon is an entirely different animal.
If the SD.Netters want the RD scripts in their collective codex, that's cool. More power to them. However, that has jack to do with the canon.
Anyway, in my opinion their attempt to turn this to an issue of canon basically means they've left the field. The evidence . . . the REAL evidence . . . is clear, and no amount of whining is going to change it.
As a fan of the federation/empire standoff... to your last reply G2k, I simply must say...
Well put.
There are sooo many problems with this page, just to mention a few of them (I'll mix some of the Objections page with some of the page in question):
>>...wampas who don't seem to find tauntauns appetizing in the first place. As such, the two are most likely from different worlds altogether.<<
Was that why we saw the Tauntaun get startled by the presence of the Wampa, the Tauntaun skeleton in the Wampa's lair and the said Wampa eating Luke's Tauntaun. I don't eat chicken, so I must be from Mars, right?
>>Some have expressed a bit of confusion regarding the evidence above, countering that the probe capsule whose course we seem to follow after launch heads down and to the starboard of the ISD and, in the rear view, apparently toward deep space. However, as seen in the next shot, the probe takes a curving course toward the planet's surface. Given the grand sweeping curves that so often figure into orbital mechanics, it is unsurprising that the probe did not start by heading straight in and then suddenly curving.<<
So where did these other probes, that weren't followed, go? (Probes that incidentally went into the direction where DSG2k claims Hoth is).
Besides, if the ISD was on top of the base, don't you think they would've detected each other? In ROTS, despite the interference that the volcanism is said to produce, we see that the sensors of the Mustafar installation picks up Padmé's small ship more than a planetary diameter away (the screen to the right of Sidious during the Vader/Sidious discussion.
>>simple snow the Wookiee was hiding behind<<
No, it's not "simple snow", but in reality thick rocks covered in snow (which is evident on the pictures of the probe droid firing: http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWprobedroid.html )
>>And finally, we have the film itself, where seeing that the Star Destroyer is very near the planet is almost as easy as one-two-three.<<
No, the planet is nowhere to be seen. The probe heads off into deep space (and then we have the aforementioned other probes that went other directions). To say that the radio drama EU is very convenient when the said ESB radio drama containing the scenes that originally was cut for timing is still being sold. We've seen similar arrangements in other SW movies as well (and the color of the stellar objects are different).
>>As noted earlier, the probe capsule is little larger than the ball of a TIE fighter cockpit. Given that TIEs are not hyperspace-equipped, it follows that vehicles of similar size would be similarly handicapped.<<
TIE-fighters are short-range fighters and has something called pilots.
>>Whereas we were kind enough to find a way to rationalize the primitive landing...<<
What would've happened if Luke had spotted the Probe Droid coming down in parachutes or braked in a non-conventional way (for a meteorite)? How would he have reported that? All the Empire would've found then would've been an empty base.
>>The droid managed to hit the wampa, doing so with a beam that quickly killed it and soon burned it down altogether. The wampa was totally disintegrated in some unknown number of "seconds". If we assume that this is less than a minute, then we have what may be the most profound example of small arms firepower in the entire Star Wars canon, and by a comfortable margin.<<
The novelization says "seconds", not anything close to a minute.
No, it's not "simple snow", but in reality thick rocks covered in snow (which is evident on the pictures of the probe droid firing: http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWprobedroid.html )
Show me where you see the rock then.
It certainly isn't visible on the screenshots availble on the linked page.
I'm not at all surprised that you can't see it (as you won't see it). I hope I got the link right:
+http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Wars/Episodes/TESB/DVD5-probedroid-chewie1z2zoverlay.jpg
As you can see, it's a large outcropping that's between Chewie's cover and the snow (note: not the rock to the left in the foreground). Han is sheltered behind such rock also.
So where did these other probes, that weren't followed, go? (Probes that incidentally went into the direction where DSG2k claims Hoth is).
Maybe they went to Hoth. The Imperial Probe Droid didn't exactly seem to be very fast so they might want to have a few to cover the planet.
Not to mention that the Hoth system probably has other planets (Hoth IV mean anything to anyone?) which the Evil Empire might have wanted to probe (though I don't see them sending a probe to a gas giant).
Besides, if the ISD was on top of the base, don't you think they would've detected each other?
Maybe it wasn't. Maybe it was on the other side of the damn planet from where the Rebels were.
Maybe Imperial sensors suck.
In ROTS, despite the interference that the volcanism is said to produce, we see that the sensors of the Mustafar installation picks up Padmé's small ship more than a planetary diameter away (the screen to the right of Sidious during the Vader/Sidious discussion.
The interference caused by volcanism doesn't compare to ten thousand kilometres of rock and metal blocking the sensors.
No, the planet is nowhere to be seen.
Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it isn't there. There is good reason to believe that the Star Destroyer was very close to Hoth due to the moons (and the planet being off a bit to the side).
The probe heads off into deep space (and then we have the aforementioned other probes that went other directions).
The probe heads to Hoth and the other probes might be going to other places on Hoth or other planets in the system.
TIE-fighters are short-range fighters and has something called pilots.
True, but they do lack hyperdrive as well as most of the sensor equipment that a Probe Droid would have.
Not to mention that the probe droid is about the size of a pilot.
What would've happened if Luke had spotted the Probe Droid coming down in parachutes or braked in a non-conventional way (for a meteorite)? How would he have reported that? All the Empire would've found then would've been an empty base.
Since this is Star Trek versus Star Trek why don't we figure out what the Federation could do if they wanted to spy on an Imperial installation.
The self replicating minefield used to blockade the Wormhole consisted on clocked mines of the order of a metre in size. They also have replicators, a warhead, thrusters and a computer. Let's take one, remove the replicators and warhead, maybe add some antigrav thrusters for planetary use and some extra sensors and comms equipment and you get the Federation equivalent of the Imperial probe droid.
Only a hell of a lot better. For example instead of looking like a meteor it wouldn't even been seen on the approach (if you have enough Δv (say from an efficient sublight propulsion system or antigravs) you can completely avoid a hot re-entry). It would also not be shot at since it wouldn't be seen in the first place and would also be able to transmit a lot more detail (given that Federation sensors are better).
Giving something that small a warp drive might be a bit hard with all the other stuff it's got but that should not be held against Star Trek since the Star Wars version doesn't have a hyperdrive (if it did why would they launch from so close to Hoth and risk giving away the fact that they were searching for the Rebels? (a rebel base operating at low power (which they would do whenever they could if they were competant (a general trait of the Rebels)) and carefully concealed would probably be harder to detect than a Starship in orbit that lacks a cloaking device making "Rebels detect Star Destroyer, Star Destroyer doesn't see Rebels" quite a likely outcome (the Empire really got lucky there))) and the sublight propulsion of the Federation is vastly superior.
Post a Comment