2006-03-04

Top Ten Reasons the Rebel Alliance Rocks

  1. One squadron of X-wings plus one squadron of Y-wings vs a Death Star and the best fighter pilot in the history of the galaxy: Rebels win.
  2. Rebel ion cannon the size of a large telescope vs Imperial Star Destroyer the size of an airport: Ion cannon wins.
  3. Five squadrons of Rebel fighters, one Millenium Falcon, and a dozen or so assorted Rebel cruisers vs several dozen Star Destroyers and a Death Star: Rebels win.
  4. Rebel commandos plus Ewok support vs a legion of the Emperor's best troops: Rebels win.
  5. Vader's "great fleet" tries to capture Rebel ships launching out of a gravity well... and fails miserably in the face of their evasive tactics.
  6. Slavery is illegal in the Empire ... but when Jabba practices slavery on the home planet of an ex-slave right hand man of the Emperor(Darth Vader), it takes the Rebels to end his foul ways.
  7. The Empire only gets hot chicks in the EU. And almost all the really hot ones there defect anyway.
  8. Even when the Empire succeeds in capturing a Rebel ship, they let what they were looking for (Death Star plans) get away.
  9. Carrie Fischer (Leia) is a hundred times hotter than Ian McDiarmid (Palpatine). If not more.
  10. The Rebel Alliance is an equal opportunity employer with regard to species, sex, race, and religion, unlike the Empire.

35 comments:

  1. I suppose this blog can't ALWAYS be about pure facts and stuff...XD

    But seriously, though this shies towards nondebate territory, you make some decent points here. And Warsies still think the Empire could win against the Federation despite the Rebel Alliance and the tons of potential and real Federation allies...*shakes head*

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  2. Tons of Federation allies? The Dominion which just went through a war with the Federation? The Romulans that conspired to perform genocide on Earth after the Dominion war? The Klingons which are religious fanatics that are constantly threatening to make war with the Federation? The Cardassians which are wiped out?Give me a break.

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  3. Well the really rabid Warsies think the Empire would beat everyone from every Sci-Fi series even Q (they probably think the Empire beat the Rebels too).

    Fanboy wankism at its best IMNSHO.

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  4. Tons of Federation allies? The Dominion which just went through a war with the Federation? The Romulans that conspired to perform genocide on Earth after the Dominion war? The Klingons which are religious fanatics that are constantly threatening to make war with the Federation? The Cardassians which are wiped out?Give me a break.

    HEY LOOK! He doesn't know what he's talking about!

    First, let us establish the year: 2379. Now that that's done, we can move on.

    1. Dominion is controlled purely by the Founders, whom have been influanced heavily by Odo since his return, no doubt. In all likelihood they would be willing to become Federation allies given the opportunity and the chance. (I'd point to the DS9 relaunch novels, but those are non canon, ashamedly.)

    2. The Romulans did bullshit. It was all Shinzon and the Remans under him. If anything, the Romulans would be EXTREMELY grateful for all the help the Feds give after Shinzon is smacked down, hence why I mention them as potential allies.

    3. Uh, what? I have no idea whether you're just stuck in the 23rd century here, or are otherwise completely misunderstanding what the Klingons are and whatnot. They have a rich culture, yes. They went to war with the Feds in--2373, or was it 2372? Someone check that for me please, because I know it was DS9's fourth season--but that was more due to the whole "HEY LET'S NOT AID THE KLINGONS WITH BEATING DOWN THE CARDASSIANS!" attitude the Federation had plus the fact that a Founder was masquerading as Martok. And speaking of Martok, he--well, love would be a wee bit of an overstatement--really does like the Federation, and as the current chancellor, he wields quite a bit of power. I see no reason the Klingons would stop being Federation allies anytime soon.

    4. The Cardassians went and rebuilt enormously in JUST A SINGLE YEAR AFTER BEING MOSTLY WIPED OUT IN THE KLINGON-CARDASSIAN WAR. I think we all remember how much of a fight they put up in the Dominion war. Oh, true, they've got 800 million dead on Cardassia alone, but they've got colony worlds, and again: guess who they're gonna be grateful towards in regards to rebuilding and whatnot? DING DING DING! That's right folks: The Federation. See, Warsies, it DOES pay off to be nice to people once in a while. Try learning how to. You might actually make some friends.

    Also, I did say potential for a reason. Despite all the circumstances, it's definitely possible that the Romulans or the Cardassians and especially the Dominion would choose not to aid the Federation in a war against the Empire. I merely feel it is more likely because the Empire is a bunch of morons that has this tendency to beat up on everyone because they foolishly think they're so superior to everyone else.

    Further, the tons refers more to the various minor powers, like the Tholians, the Breen, the Gorn, the Tzenkethi, and many others.

    So, what do ye say to that?

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  5. 1. Dominion is controlled purely by the Founders, whom have been influanced heavily by Odo since his return, no doubt. In all likelihood they would be willing to become Federation allies given the opportunity and the chance. (I'd point to the DS9 relaunch novels, but those are non canon, ashamedly.)
    Uhuh.
    ODO:"Hey the Federation is under attack!"
    FOUNDER2:"You mean that same Federation that inflicted us with mortal desease and almost wiped out our entire race?"
    ODO:"Yep that's the one. Shall we help them?"
    FOUNDER2:"Let them burn."

    2. The Romulans did bullshit. It was all Shinzon and the Remans under him. If anything, the Romulans would be EXTREMELY grateful for all the help the Feds give after Shinzon is smacked down, hence why I mention them as potential allies.
    And you forgot about those admirals? You forgot that Donatra herself was part of the plot until she had a change of heart. And how do you think racist Romulan Empire will respond when they find out that the one who killed their entire senate is - human.

    3. Uh, what? I have no idea whether you're just stuck in the 23rd century here, or are otherwise completely misunderstanding what the Klingons are and whatnot. They have a rich culture, yes. They went to war with the Feds in--2373, or was it 2372? Someone check that for me please, because I know it was DS9's fourth season--but that was more due to the whole "HEY LET'S NOT AID THE KLINGONS WITH BEATING DOWN THE CARDASSIANS!" attitude the Federation had plus the fact that a Founder was masquerading as Martok. And speaking of Martok, he--well, love would be a wee bit of an overstatement--really does like the Federation, and as the current chancellor, he wields quite a bit of power. I see no reason the Klingons would stop being Federation allies anytime soon.
    Actually the Klingons from 23rd century were far more competent and thrustworthy than those from TNG. Gowron who owed Picard his position as Chancellor later denounced the Khitomer accords and pushed the Federation and Klingons on the brink of a war just because the Federation wouldn't help him defeat the Cardassians.

    4. The Cardassians went and rebuilt enormously in JUST A SINGLE YEAR AFTER BEING MOSTLY WIPED OUT IN THE KLINGON-CARDASSIAN WAR. I think we all remember how much of a fight they put up in the Dominion war. Oh, true, they've got 800 million dead on Cardassia alone, but they've got colony worlds, and again: guess who they're gonna be grateful towards in regards to rebuilding and whatnot? DING DING DING! That's right folks: The Federation.
    Uhuh sure. Their fleet is broken and their capitol is in ruins but they are still a power. And they absolutley adore the Federation with which they have fought two wars in the last 30 years. They turned against the Dominion beacuse of Founders idiotic decision to destroy an entire city not beacue they loved the Federation. They wanted to conquer the Federation and now that Federation has caused so much death you think they will come riding to their help?

    See, Warsies, it DOES pay off to be nice to people once in a while. Try learning how to. You might actually make some friends.
    What? I have a lot of friends thank you very much and I am trying to be nice to people. What does this have to do with Federation and it's lack of allies?

    Further, the tons refers more to the various minor powers, like the Tholians, the Breen, the Gorn, the Tzenkethi, and many others.
    The Breen? The Breen who, when opportunity presented itself, allied themselves with the Domionion and wanted to annex Earth. Who launched an attack on San Francisco? And now when they are defeated they will come rushing to Federation aid? In what world do you live in. I won't even commend on Tholians and Tzenkethi who have either fought wars with the Federation or signed a non aggresion treaties with the Dominion.

    So, what do ye say to that?
    I say you need to brush up on your history lessons. Defeated civilisations will not come rushing to aid their enemies after the war.

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  6. ...

    I want to argue against your points. I want to, because that's what my instincts tell me. But apart from a mild disagreement with the Klingon point--that being that Gowron is now dead and the Empire is being lead by someone who actually has his head on his shoulders--I think you're right. I bow to your superior judgement, good sir.

    (On a side note, and note that I'm not saying this to you, but this is something Rabid Warsies should pay attention to: when faced with superior evidence and/or superior argument, you back down and admit that you were wrong, as I have.)

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  7. If we see a new Trek movie or series set after Nemesis, it will almost certainly show relations with the Romulans continuing to warm, as they have been (slowly) since TOS. We shall, of course, see, but the indications seem pretty strong that they will be friendlier than ever.

    The Gorn - if we actually manage to see them onscreen - are indicated backstage and in published non-canon materials to be now on friendly terms, but we don't know how friendly.

    If the Empire can present as credible a threat as the Alpha Quadrant Dominion with its 30,000 warships, we could expect at least the Klingon and Romulan empires to help the Federation - just as they did then - along with an assortment of minor allies that (frankly) aren't likely to have anywhere near the strength of those three major powers.

    This is better than the canonical Empire, which receives no external military help of note... and at no point in its own history, from rise to fall, did not have to cope with Rebels.

    Pro-Wars debaters are inclined to entirely dismiss the Rebel Alliance, trying to paint it as pitiful next to the Empire, and therefore unable to help the Federation. This ignores the very credible fact that the canon tells us that they won - and achieved this victory with a minimum of raw firepower.

    Some like to backtrack, and then claim that the Rebel Alliance's military forces were actually huge, but not seen onscreen - although, of course, pitiful compared to the Empire's, which are much absurdly huger. Thus, the Federation could not possibly be of any help to the Rebel alliance.

    Every time a pro-Wars debater dismisses the Rebels' victory as "pure plot device," they dismiss the relative cleverness of Imperial, Rebel, and Federation forces that the canon itself establishes at great length.

    I've talked before about how the Federation was perfectly capable of performing the Yavin mission, the Endor mission, and the Hoth escape just as well as the Rebels - who used very little force and relatively few vessels in each case.

    Star Wars tells us over and over again that the clever guys who can sneak a kiloton package into a couple critical spots will win against the Empire.

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  8. If we see a new Trek movie or series set after Nemesis, it will almost certainly show relations with the Romulans continuing to warm, as they have been (slowly) since TOS. We shall, of course, see, but the indications seem pretty strong that they will be friendlier than ever.
    And you base that on what exactly? A drink offer made by Picard to Donatra?

    The Gorn - if we actually manage to see them onscreen - are indicated backstage and in published non-canon materials to be now on friendly terms, but we don't know how friendly.
    What are their capabilities? How many ships do they have? And I see you are willing to introduce non-canon material. I personally have no problem with non-canon but I think that it's pretty ironic that you turn around and cry foul when the same is done for Star Wars.

    If the Empire can present as credible a threat as the Alpha Quadrant Dominion with its 30,000 warships, we could expect at least the Klingon and Romulan empires to help the Federation - just as they did then - along with an assortment of minor allies that (frankly) aren't likely to have anywhere near the strength of those three major powers.
    You know I thought this was Galactic Empire vs Federation. There is no reason for the Empire to declare war on every single race in the Alpha quadrant. And you continue to ignore the fact that Romulans were tricked into joining the war. I can only imagine what will happen if they ever find out the truth.

    Pro-Wars debaters are inclined to entirely dismiss the Rebel Alliance, trying to paint it as pitiful next to the Empire, and therefore unable to help the Federation. This ignores the very credible fact that the canon tells us that they won - and achieved this victory with a minimum of raw firepower.
    Some like to backtrack, and then claim that the Rebel Alliance's military forces were actually huge, but not seen onscreen - although, of course, pitiful compared to the Empire's, which are much absurdly huger. Thus, the Federation could not possibly be of any help to the Rebel alliance.
    Every time a pro-Wars debater dismisses the Rebels' victory as "pure plot device," they dismiss the relative cleverness of Imperial, Rebel, and Federation forces that the canon itself establishes at great length.

    Do you really can't see the difference between an inside terrorist group and outside invader? You forget that some members of Rebel alliance were also
    Imerial senators, that population supported the Rebelion. Did you not see the celebrations on Coruscant, Naboo and tatooine after the Emperor died? Frankly if you cannot understand the difference between fighting your own population and external enemy I really can't help you.
    Additionally you silently assume that Federation forces are equal or superior to that of the Rebels. Home One alone is 60 times bigger than a Galaxy class starship or almost 400 times bigger than Excelsior class.

    I've talked before about how the Federation was perfectly capable of performing the Yavin mission, the Endor mission, and the Hoth escape just as well as the Rebels - who used very little force and relatively few vessels in each case.
    Sure all they need is the most powerful Force user of all times, planetary shields of sufficient strength to hold the fire from Executor and something that can manouver well enough to reach DS2's reactor and still packs enough firepower.

    Star Wars tells us over and over again that the clever guys who can sneak a kiloton package into a couple critical spots will win against the Empire.
    And Star Trek tells us that "clever" quys can destroy the Borg with a computer virus. That Galaxy class can be destroyed by a computer virus etc.

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  9. And you base that on what exactly? A drink offer made by Picard to Donatra?
    That, and the assorted "non-canon" (but official) works set immediately after. This (along with assorted cues like that) give you your best bet on where the canon will go in the future.

    What are their capabilities? How many ships do they have? And I see you are willing to introduce non-canon material. I personally have no problem with non-canon but I think that it's pretty ironic that you turn around and cry foul when the same is done for Star Wars.
    In this case, I acknowledge that it isn't canon.... and that we have no idea what the Gorn are up to. (Nemesis was to include at least one Gorn at Riker's bachelor party. I could check again, but I'm pretty sure he got cut.)

    You know I thought this was Galactic Empire vs Federation. There is no reason for the Empire to declare war on every single race in the Alpha quadrant. And you continue to ignore the fact that Romulans were tricked into joining the war. I can only imagine what will happen if they ever find out the truth.
    "Tricked" into the war? Don't forget, the Romulans and Cardassians made the first overt military strike of the war in "The Die is Cast," two years prior to the "official" beginning of open hostilities. Which the Founders tricked them into doing, incidentally.

    If you want to play your cards realistically, you must realized no power can be taken out of its context.

    Do you really can't see the difference between an inside terrorist group and outside invader? You forget that some members of Rebel alliance were also
    Imerial senators, that population supported the Rebelion. Did you not see the celebrations on Coruscant, Naboo and tatooine after the Emperor died? Frankly if you cannot understand the difference between fighting your own population and external enemy I really can't help you.
    Additionally you silently assume that Federation forces are equal or superior to that of the Rebels. Home One alone is 60 times bigger than a Galaxy class starship or almost 400 times bigger than Excelsior class.


    Home One being the only ship of that size, a fraction the size of a Borg cube... and, even when most generously scaled, the MCCs are at most roughly the same size as a D'deridex.

    You know... I don't "silently assume" that. I've explained - at great length - why it's the case that Federation forces are quite comparable with the Rebels. (Who, mind you, fought all their key battles with conventional military forces.) Nor is the assumption that the Rebels could not benefit from the Federation in any way justified.

    Sure all they need is the most powerful Force user of all times,

    Not needed with ST's standards of accuracy. You may recall the mission was planned with the notion that normal (if skilled) pilots would have a chance of pulling it off.

    planetary shields of sufficient strength to hold the fire from Executor
    Clearly established in "Dagger of the Mind."

    and something that can manouver well enough to reach DS2's reactor and still packs enough firepower.
    You're well aware that a starship crew stranded in the middle of nowhere can design and build such a craft in two weeks. (Delta Flyer.) Which - I might add - is rather ridiculous.

    And Star Trek tells us that "clever" quys can destroy the Borg with a computer virus. That Galaxy class can be destroyed by a computer virus etc.
    And the Empire uses these "clever" tactics?

    No, they don't.

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  10. "Tricked" into the war? Don't forget, the Romulans and Cardassians made the first overt military strike of the war in "The Die is Cast," two years prior to the "official" beginning of open hostilities. Which the Founders tricked them into doing, incidentally.
    If you want to play your cards realistically, you must realized no power can be taken out of its context.

    How does this change the fact that Romulans were tricked into the war? That they didn't give a shit about the Federation until the Federation tricked them into believing Dominion is preparing to attack them directly?

    Home One being the only ship of that size, a fraction the size of a Borg cube... and, even when most generously scaled, the MCCs are at most roughly the same size as a D'deridex.
    Borg cube? We are talking about the Federation here. And of course the D'deridex is completley hollow and cannot compare with MCCs in terms of actual useful volume.

    You know... I don't "silently assume" that. I've explained - at great length - why it's the case that Federation forces are quite comparable with the Rebels. (Who, mind you, fought all their key battles with conventional military forces.) Nor is the assumption that the Rebels could not benefit from the Federation in any way justified.
    You gave no explanations of how the Federation is even close to the Rebels who can cross the galaxy in hours. We know from official sources which you yourself introduced that their galaxy is 120,000ly in diameter and that outer rim is indeed the outer galactic rim thus putting Naboo, Tatooine and Mustafar at ~50,000ly away from Coruscant.

    Not needed with ST's standards of accuracy. You may recall the mission was planned with the notion that normal (if skilled) pilots would have a chance of pulling it off.
    Ahahahahahahahaha!
    Star Trek ships repeatedly miss 600m targets at a few km distance.

    Clearly established in "Dagger of the Mind."
    I'm sorry. It is established how much energy the shield can absorb? Could you provide the quote?

    You're well aware that a starship crew stranded in the middle of nowhere can design and build such a craft in two weeks. (Delta Flyer.) Which - I might add - is rather ridiculous.
    And the fact it packs enough firepower comes from where exactly? The fact that it is maneuverable enough comes from where?

    And the Empire uses these "clever" tactics?
    Why not? How difficult can it be to infect someone with that virus and let collective assimilate him?

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  11. //Star Trek ships repeatedly miss 600m targets at a few km distance.//
    Except when hittinbg a few meter big ships from kms away in "Dragon's teeth"
    Where did you get this BS anyway?


    // And the fact it packs enough firepower comes from where exactly? The fact that it is maneuverable enough comes from where?//
    for meneuvers, watch episodes. For firepower, it can just beam a PT over once close enough...

    ""And the Empire uses these "clever" tactics?""
    // Why not? How difficult can it be to infect someone with that virus and let collective assimilate him?//
    But we never see it in SW canon. Watch BSG2003. Cylons DO use clever tactics. galactic Empire does not

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  12. How does this change the fact that Romulans were tricked into the war? That they didn't give a shit about the Federation until the Federation tricked them into believing Dominion is preparing to attack them directly?
    It changes everything.

    You see, whether or not the Romulans were helping the Federation solely because they were tricked (they were on the fence about it before), they went all-out against the Dominion simply because they were perceived as a potential threat. The Empire, if remotely near as impressive in any fashion, can expect a similar reaction.

    Borg cube? We are talking about the Federation here. And of course the D'deridex is completley hollow and cannot compare with MCCs in terms of actual useful volume.
    Actually, that's discounting the “hollow portion.” And neglecting the whole issue of SW capital ships' size, which does not match the classic WEG paradigm at all.

    You gave no explanations of how the Federation is even close to the Rebels who can cross the galaxy in hours. We know from official sources which you yourself introduced that their galaxy is 120,000ly in diameter and that outer rim is indeed the outer galactic rim thus putting Naboo, Tatooine and Mustafar at ~50,000ly away from Coruscant.
    I've addressed these assorted unbased claims before.

    Suffice it to say that the Rebellion is everywhere the Empire is. Contact with one power entails contact with the other.

    Ahahahahahahahaha! Star Trek ships repeatedly miss 600m targets at a few km distance.
    As established in “Changeling,” striking a meter-wide target - let alone the three meter vent - is child's play at 90,000 kilometers.

    The only 600m targets missed are those engaged in maneuvers far more evasive than the Death Star.

    I'm sorry. It is established how much energy the shield can absorb? Could you provide the quote?

    It is. Examine the firepower demonstrated in TESB vs the firepower demonstrated in TOS. This shows - very clearly - how the shield in question could repel firepower well in excess of anything short of a Death Star seen in SW.

    And the fact it packs enough firepower comes from where exactly?

    Ohoho, someone wants to claim that the Falcon blasted the Death Star's reactor with something more than a kiloton?

    Look at the SFX, man. It's at most a low-grade fusion torp used to detonate the Death Star's reactor. A mere pinch of slush antimatter can match it.

    The fact that it is maneuverable enough comes from where?
    Watch the Delta Flyer in “Drive.” It's every bit as maneuverable as the Falcon at sublight.


    Why not? How difficult can it be to infect someone with that virus and let collective assimilate him?
    We may note that wasn't a computer virus, anon. Brush up on it. It was a very curious sort of virus indeed, but classed as a bioweapon.

    And the Empire has never been seen to exercise anywhere near that degree of creativity. That's why not.

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  13. Typical Warsies. Can't stand that Star Wars technology is just not up to beating the Federation by itself let alone with the allies that the Federation has.

    On the allies:
    The Klingons would to be on good terms with the Federation under an honourable leader (i.e. Martok), the Romulans are probably starting to see the Federation as a potential friend, the Cardies took quite a beating and are probably still rebuilding even now (yes, you can laugh) and their military forces are weak but under a civilian government which is probably what they'd have they are unlikely to be expansionist again (they know what it cost them when they tried it before).

    The Dominion is the one that I wouldn't expect to be much help unless they were threatened. We simply don't know how much of an affect Odo had on them so they are in the long term a potential worry.

    As for the minor powers, I don't think they'd have much of an effect on the outcome but I would expect the Ferengi to be willing to help with logistics for a suitable price.

    Though I don't see any of the minor powers siding with the Empire if they know what it's like, it'd be downright suicidal, the best the Empire could hope for from them would be that they remain neutral.

    On the size of the 'Galactic' Empire:

    The So called 'Galactic' Empire doesn't even span the whole thing, I mean how could a system near the core of the galaxy be on the "outer rim" if they did?

    On Planetary Shielding:

    As has been mentioned there is proof of planetary shielding being in use in the Federation. There is no such proof of planetary shielding in use within the Galactic Empire.

    As I said, some Warsies probably think the Empire beat the Rebels.

    But ignoring the movies in favour of the non canon seems to be a Warsie pasttime.

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  14. You see, whether or not the Romulans were helping the Federation solely because they were tricked (they were on the fence about it before), they went all-out against the Dominion simply because they were perceived as a potential threat. The Empire, if remotely near as impressive in any fashion, can expect a similar reaction.
    You just refuse to listen. The Romulans did not attack the Dominion until tricked to do so. Obviously we cannot now for sure wether they will join the fight or not. But based on other precedents most likely they will not.

    Actually, that's discounting the “hollow portion.” And neglecting the whole issue of SW capital ships' size, which does not match the classic WEG paradigm at all.
    Yeah many of the ships are bigger than WEG gives them credit for. Luckily there are other official sources and in film scalings that confirm their size. Speaking of which where are Galaxys canon sizes stated? Or Akiras for that matter? Or Nebula class? Maybe you want to look at the saucer scene in Genaerations where it can be scaled against the people and it is no more than 250m wide.

    I've addressed these assorted unbased claims before.
    Suffice it to say that the Rebellion is everywhere the Empire is. Contact with one power entails contact with the other.

    Sorry you've addressed nothing. The official sources put Naboo, Geonosis and Tatooine and Mustafar at outer rim and put the outer rim at 50,000ly. And yes Rebellion is everywhere Empire is beacuse they also have hyperdrive unlike Federation which needs to limp from one end of the galaxy to another for 70 years.

    As established in “Changeling,” striking a meter-wide target - let alone the three meter vent - is child's play at 90,000 kilometers.
    Except of course that target was immobile and the ship didn't need evade enemy fire. Of course you ignore that it's not enough to just hit the entrance, the torpedo must make a 90 degree turn straight down to reactor.

    The only 600m targets missed are those engaged in maneuvers far more evasive than the Death Star.
    No they didn't. The Enterpirse hardly manouvered at all during those engagements.

    It is. Examine the firepower demonstrated in TESB vs the firepower demonstrated in TOS. This shows - very clearly - how the shield in question could repel firepower well in excess of anything short of a Death Star seen in SW.
    And when you say "firpeower demonstrated in TOS" you really mean "something a characther said which is open to interpretation but I will naturally interpret it in such a way that exaggerates the firepower". Here is a hint: check ST5 for demonstrated TOS firepower.

    Ohoho, someone wants to claim that the Falcon blasted the Death Star's reactor with something more than a kiloton?
    Look at the SFX, man. It's at most a low-grade fusion torp used to detonate the Death Star's reactor. A mere pinch of slush antimatter can match it.

    Hehe. You fanatic Trekkies are the best. Out of all the hundreds of photon torpedo explosions did one of them looked like a multi-megaton explosion? No, they all looked like fiery chemical explosions. You ignore that of course but when SW firepower comes to play it's a completley different ball game. Prove that Delta Flyer packs enough firepower.

    Watch the Delta Flyer in “Drive.” It's every bit as maneuverable as the Falcon at sublight.
    It can fly around an ISD bridge and perch itself on the hull in a few seconds? Never saw that one.

    We may note that wasn't a computer virus, anon. Brush up on it. It was a very curious sort of virus indeed, but classed as a bioweapon.
    Yeah sure. And how could it spread to the entire unicomplex so quickly then? Why did machinery start to fall apart?

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  15. You just refuse to listen. The Romulans did not attack the Dominion until tricked to do so. Obviously we cannot now for sure wether they will join the fight or not. But based on other precedents most likely they will not.
    The only one refusing to listen is you. Check the timeline.

    2371: TDIC. Romulans and Cardassians decide to wipe out the Founders' home planet.
    2373: The Federation and Klingon Empire declare war on the Dominion.
    2374: The Romulan Star Empire declares war on the Dominion.

    Before the Federation's hot war with the Dominion started, the Romulans were on the offensive already.

    Yeah many of the ships are bigger than WEG gives them credit for. Luckily there are other official sources and in film scalings that confirm their size.
    Scaling from the films contradicts the WEG scalings both relative to each other (ISD vs SSD) and directly contradict the "base" figures (1600m for ISD, 150m for Tantive IV) which are demonstrated independently in the movies to often be about 700-800m and 60-70m respectively.

    Speaking of which where are Galaxys canon sizes stated? Or Akiras for that matter? Or Nebula class? Maybe you want to look at the saucer scene in Genaerations where it can be scaled against the people and it is no more than 250m wide.

    The size of the GCS is a matter of no small study if you want to go into the details. Unlike the WEG figures, these are commonly investigated against the canon. See EAS for an empirical overview.

    And yes Rebellion is everywhere.
    Which, all your erroneous red herrings aside, tells you the UFP will not have any trouble making contact with them if they make contact with the Empire.

    Except of course that target was immobile and the ship didn't need evade enemy fire.
    Neither does the Death Star.

    Of course you ignore that it's not enough to just hit the entrance, the torpedo must make a 90 degree turn straight down to reactor.
    And we've seen torpedos maneuver sharply before. Not only that, but a torpedo will have an easier time approaching the vent than a fighter.

    Nor does it have to follow the trench line in the first place... nor, being a shielded object itself, will it have trouble smashing itself against the side, as Wedge's torpedo did. I have ignored nothing.

    No they didn't. The Enterpirse hardly manouvered at all during those engagements.

    "Hardly" meaning "a heckuva lot more than the Death Star."

    And "Changeling" is far from the only example of meeting the "shoot it down a 3m wide tube" degree of accuracy required. There are dozens if not hundreds of such.

    And when you say "firpeower demonstrated in TOS" you really mean "something a characther said which is open to interpretation but I will naturally interpret it in such a way that exaggerates the firepower".
    No, I mean "look at the visual effects." Although the dialogue is also important, yes.

    Since you're not familiar with TOS in any sort of detail (unsurprising, Wong essentially ignores it on his site), you wouldn't know what I'm talking about at all.
    Hehe. You fanatic Trekkies are the best. Out of all the hundreds of photon torpedo explosions did one of them looked like a multi-megaton explosion?
    Actually, quite a few did.
    No, they all looked like fiery chemical explosions.
    No, that's Star Wars. Typical explosions in Star Wars looks fiery and chemical.

    Typical photorp detonations involve a flash of white light. No flames, no roiling gasoline smoke.

    You ignore that of course but when SW firepower comes to play it's a completley different ball game. Prove that Delta Flyer packs enough firepower.
    I already have.

    Bar all else, we can set the warp core to "breach," which you should recognize as having a navigationally hazardous radius of effect. However, that is clearly unnecessary given the Falcon's displayed firepower (fighter grade).

    It can fly around an ISD bridge and perch itself on the hull in a few seconds? Never saw that one.
    You never saw that episode, then?

    Yeah sure. And how could it spread to the entire unicomplex so quickly then? Why did machinery start to fall apart?
    Machinery falling apart? Dear me, I don't even remember that one.

    Which "failed virus attempt to wipe out the Borg" are you thinking of? There have been quite a few, and none have yet succeeded in actually wiping out the Collective.

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  16. The 'official' sources which put the Outer Rim at 50 kcy from the Core are contradicted by the canon Star Wars movies. Thus the 'Galactic' Empire only has ambitions for the name to make sense.

    I'd also like to suggest that you watch TNG: Skin of Evil to see a torpedo of about half gigatonne yield. Even in Enterprise before the Federation Earth ships were carrying weapons that were in the tens of megatonne TNT equivalent and yet could be adjusted to the point at which they are no more powerful than a cannon shell, I see no reason to believe the Federation lost the ability to make a multi-megatonne weapon produce barely a few tonnes worth of damage by Star Trek V.

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  17. The only one refusing to listen is you. Check the timeline.
    2371: TDIC. Romulans and Cardassians decide to wipe out the Founders' home planet.
    2373: The Federation and Klingon Empire declare war on the Dominion.
    2374: The Romulan Star Empire declares war on the Dominion.
    Before the Federation's hot war with the Dominion started, the Romulans were on the offensive already.

    But you again ignore the part where Romulans signed a non agression treaty with the Dominion. And the Founders were exceptionally vulnerable to a surprise attack beacuse they were all located in the same place. The Empire will not have the same weakness and it is unlikely the Romulans will even attempt such rash first strike.

    Scaling from the films contradicts the WEG scalings both relative to each other (ISD vs SSD) and directly contradict the "base" figures (1600m for ISD, 150m for Tantive IV) which are demonstrated independently in the movies to often be about 700-800m and 60-70m respectively.
    And you ignore independent scalings of SSD against an A-wing int ROTJ and Solo's Lambda shuttle flyby which both put the SSD at ~20km. As for ISD the opening imperial scene in TESB show an ISD in front of SSD and the ship is at least 10 times shorter. Scaling of ISD in ROTJ using Vaders Lambda shuttle also point to 1600m and as for TantiveIV do I need to show you the scene from ROTJ where we see a Millenium Falcon in front of the Tantive class and which puts Tantive at 150m at least.

    The size of the GCS is a matter of no small study if you want to go into the details. Unlike the WEG figures, these are commonly investigated against the canon. See EAS for an empirical overview.
    Since you don't trust the scalings made on Star Wars technical commentaries why should I trust the ones from EAS? In any case there are no scalings regarding the Galaxy so it seems that the only scalings put the Galaxy at 280m wide and 390m long. It is really incredible that you are willing to nitpick every single size in SW and yet pretend like nothing is wrong with Galaxy size. Of course you use the Galaxy to determine the size of other objects such as Warbirds and S74. But since the Galaxy appears to be 390m long that decreases the S74 linears size by 40% and it's volume by factor of 4.4.

    No, that's Star Wars. Typical explosions in Star Wars looks fiery and chemical.
    Typical photorp detonations involve a flash of white light. No flames, no roiling gasoline smoke.

    Uhuh. Maybe you should watch photon torpedo destroying firing at BoP's in ST6 and ST7. No firey explosion my ass.

    Bar all else, we can set the warp core to "breach," which you should recognize as having a navigationally hazardous radius of effect.
    And how exactly is this warp core breach going to reach the reactor of the Death Star? Which is ray shielded.

    However, that is clearly unnecessary given the Falcon's displayed firepower (fighter grade).
    And what firepower did Federation shuttle display when it destroyed that truck in "Back to the future" episode? What firepower did Enterprise display in ST5 when it fired a photon torpedo next to Kirk? What firepower did Voyager diplay when it fired two photon torpedoes into the Kazon next the building and the buliding wasn't even scrached by the detonation?

    You never saw that episode, then?
    I saw the episode and nothing the flyer did matched the Millenium Falcon. And I'm still waiting for evidence that such small Federation vessels have the required firepower.

    Machinery falling apart? Dear me, I don't even remember that one.
    If you didn't see Queens mechanical parts starting to fall off and the entire Transwarp hub blowing up maybe you should have your eyes examined.

    The 'official' sources which put the Outer Rim at 50 kcy from the Core are contradicted by the canon Star Wars movies.
    What is "kcy"? I supose you mean kly. How is 50,000ly contradicted by the movies?

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  18. But you again ignore the part where Romulans signed a non agression treaty with the Dominion. And the Founders were exceptionally vulnerable to a surprise attack beacuse they were all located in the same place. The Empire will not have the same weakness and it is unlikely the Romulans will even attempt such rash first strike.

    That they signed a non-aggression treaty isn't helping you any. Romulus clearly will react to any perceived threat with great violence (e.g., the Empire) and is willing to double-talk at the diplomatic table to do so.

    Pre-emptive strikes have been a critical point of Romulan defense policies since the 22nd century. We've seen them in the 23rd and 24th centuries as well. It's blown up in their face many a time; they haven't stopped yet.

    And you ignore independent scalings of SSD against an A-wing int ROTJ and Solo's Lambda shuttle flyby which both put the SSD at ~20km.
    I don't ignore them. As a matter of fact, some independent scalings from the film place the SSD at ~60 km... which produces severe problems, since the ISD is fully 1/11th the length, and all non-SSD based scalings of the ISD result in far smaller SSDs. Which leaves us asking the question: Can ILM produce consistent scaling of space ships? The answer appears to be no.

    Now, given the overscaling of the A-Wing by WEG that you probably accept (the A-Wing is quite a bit smaller than claimed by WEG; the X-Wing is possibly a bit larger, incidentally), it's unlikely that your A-Wing scaling actually puts it at 20 km using the correct A-Wing size.

    As for ISD the opening imperial scene in TESB show an ISD in front of SSD and the ship is at least 10 times shorter. Scaling of ISD in ROTJ using Vaders Lambda shuttle also point to 1600m and as for TantiveIV do I need to show you the scene from ROTJ where we see a Millenium Falcon in front of the Tantive class and which puts Tantive at 150m at least.
    Actually, the scene from ROTJ places a TIV-like corvette at about 300m. This is clearly a re-use of the model (ala the Trek BOP) to represent another ship class, as the TIV itself may be scaled by its own features to ~64m in ANH. Scaling the ANH appearance to the ISD gives us ~750m or so, as does scaling the ISD to TIE fighters and bombers in TESB and ROTJ.

    Since you don't trust the scalings made on Star Wars technical commentaries why should I trust the ones from EAS?
    First, because EAS, unlike the SWTC, is considered highly noncontroversial. Second, because they use a massive amount of canon data rather than selected examples.

    In any case there are no scalings regarding the Galaxy so it seems that the only scalings put the Galaxy at 280m wide and 390m long. It is really incredible that you are willing to nitpick every single size in SW and yet pretend like nothing is wrong with Galaxy size. Of course you use the Galaxy to determine the size of other objects such as Warbirds and S74. But since the Galaxy appears to be 390m long that decreases the S74 linears size by 40% and it's volume by factor of 4.4

    There are problems with the GCS size, complicated mainly by the fact that two different models, with different proportions, are used interchangeably for the Enterprise D. However, the commonly used 640m length is the best figure available, based on scaling with other ships, deck counts, knowledge of the E-D's internal structure, etc.

    Uhuh. Maybe you should watch photon torpedo destroying firing at BoP's in ST6 and ST7. No firey explosion my ass.
    Not typically, no. Now watch ROTS and tell me that there's any point to your claiming ST weapons produce fiery explosions.

    And how exactly is this warp core breach going to reach the reactor of the Death Star? Which is ray shielded.
    Ray shields don't stop torpedos. Or ejected warp cores. Or kamikazed Delta Flyers.

    And what firepower did Federation shuttle display when it destroyed that truck in "Back to the future" episode? What firepower did Enterprise display in ST5 when it fired a photon torpedo next to Kirk? What firepower did Voyager diplay when it fired two photon torpedoes into the Kazon next the building and the buliding wasn't even scrached by the detonation?

    In all those cases? Firepower comparable to the MIllenium Falcon. This is, of course, ignoring the firepower displayed in "Skin of Evil," "The Die is Cast," "Balance of Power," "A Taste for Armageddon," "The Paradise Syndrome," "Rise," "Whom Gods Destroy," etc etc etc, all of which are dramatically higher than the firepower of the MIllenium Falcon.

    I saw the episode and nothing the flyer did matched the Millenium Falcon. And I'm still waiting for evidence that such small Federation vessels have the required firepower.

    Well, I've seen ROTJ, and nothing the Falcon did matched the Delta Flyer. Dunno what you think the Falcon was doing, but it didn't perform anything exceptional.

    If you didn't see Queens mechanical parts starting to fall off and the entire Transwarp hub blowing up maybe you should have your eyes examined.

    Like I said... there have been a dozen or so failed attempts to destroy the Borg collective using a virus, and you're referencing one that's not ringing any bells. Are you ranting about the poor scripting of "Endgame" again? That wasn't a "computer virus" either. That was a "neurolytic pathogen," a sort of cyborg-virus.

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  19. But seriously, though this shies towards nondebate territory, you make some decent points here. And Warsies still think the Empire could win against the Federation despite the Rebel Alliance and the tons of potential and real Federation allies...*shakes head*
    Usually, comparisons are made solely between the Empure and the Federation.

    The Empire would have a lot more diffuculty subjugating the whole galaxy. At least one interstellar power can build starships rivalling the Death Star.


    Michael

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  20. But you again ignore the part where Romulans signed a non agression treaty with the Dominion.
    Which is the best that the Empire could possibly hope to get from any power in the Star Trek galaxy.

    Uhuh. Maybe you should watch photon torpedo destroying firing at BoP's in ST6 and ST7. No firey explosion my ass.
    Click here.

    And how exactly is this warp core breach going to reach the reactor of the Death Star? Which is ray shielded.
    Pump enough radiation into that ray shield and it will go down. Considering how pitiful Star Wars weapons are you probably won't need that much, a good phaser shot should do it and a Warp Core Breach is probably overkill.

    And what firepower did Federation shuttle display when it destroyed that truck in "Back to the future" episode?
    Just enough to destroy the truck without killing Tom Paris.

    What firepower did Enterprise display in ST5 when it fired a photon torpedo next to Kirk?
    Just enough to hurt 'God' without killing Kirk.

    What firepower did Voyager diplay when it fired two photon torpedoes into the Kazon next the building and the buliding wasn't even scrached by the detonation?
    Just enough to prevent that ship from firing without damaging the building it was firing at.

    What you have to realise is that Federation weapons are very flexiable with the ability to operate at lower powers that maximum and the accuracy to hit even very small targets from great distances. This means that when less than maximum power is needed or there a friendly forces nearby that can not be harmed a Federation starship can reduce weapons power to the minimum neccessary.

    What is "kcy"? I supose you mean kly.
    No, I meant kcy, maybe you are using the incorrect kly for kilolight year.

    How is 50,000ly contradicted by the movies?For the Outer Rim to be 50 kcy from the Centre of the Galactic Empire would require that all Outer Rim planets be around the edge of the galaxy yet in AToC we get to see a Star Map putting an Outer Rim planet near the Core of the galaxy.

    Thus, Outer Rim in Star Wars does not mean edge of the galaxy but edge of the Galactic Empire.

    Usually, comparisons are made solely between the Empure and the Federation.
    True. The Federation wouldn't need any allies to beat the Empire but they probably find themselves with such allies.

    At least one interstellar power can build starships rivalling the Death Star.
    Who would that be?

    I suspect that pretty much any power in the Star Trek galaxy could build a Death Star if they wanted one, probably something a lot smaller than what the Empire built too.

    It just seems that most of the Star Trek galaxy, even those who want to conquer, are more interested in getting planets than in blowing them up.

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  21. //
    At least one interstellar power can build starships rivalling the Death Star.
    Who would that be?
    //
    Species 8472. From "Scorpion"
    9 ships blow up 1 planet.

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  22. Species 8472 kinda doesn't count. They exist more or less purely in Fluidic space and only pop in once in a while to gobsmack the Borg.

    That said, considering that a bit of funking around with a trilithium weapon can destroy a star and its entire system with it, I see no reason why Star Trek peeps couldn't make a Death Star-esque planetary weapon destroyer as well. But they have no reason to. They're not evil enough to wipe out a planet of billions of souls just to get at a Rebellion, unlike the Empire. The only ones that would are, again, 8472, and again, they see anything that's not them as something to be destroyed. But apart from them, everyone wants to keep planets around. They'd probably laugh their heads off at the Empire for needing a 120 kilimeter sized battlestation just to destroy a planet.

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  23. That they signed a non-aggression treaty isn't helping you any. Romulus clearly will react to any perceived threat with great violence (e.g., the Empire) and is willing to double-talk at the diplomatic table to do so.
    Pre-emptive strikes have been a critical point of Romulan defense policies since the 22nd century. We've seen them in the 23rd and 24th centuries as well. It's blown up in their face many a time; they haven't stopped yet.

    Of course this was not organized by the Romulan and Cardassian goverments but by Tal'Shiar ans Obsidian Order. The Romulan goverment later signed a non aggression treaty while Cardassian goverment joined the Dominion. So one day Cardassian and Romulans are allies the next they are at war. This is the way real world operates and I don't see any reason why should Federation expect Romulan help.

    1/11th the length, and all non-SSD based scalings of the ISD result in far smaller SSDs. Which leaves us asking the question: Can ILM produce consistent scaling of space ships? The answer appears to be no.
    SSD is approximatley 11 times the ISD but some sources put it at almost 12 times which equals the 19km fugure currently featured on star wars offcial page. As for ILM not producing consistant scalings, since they made many of Star Trek films this doesn't really help anyone. Not to mention illustrious David Stipes and "dramatic scalings".

    Now, given the overscaling of the A-Wing by WEG that you probably accept (the A-Wing is quite a bit smaller than claimed by WEG; the X-Wing is possibly a bit larger, incidentally), it's unlikely that your A-Wing scaling actually puts it at 20 km using the correct A-Wing size.
    Actually at 4m width the SSD is indeed at least 20km in length. This is the scene where A-wings blow up those sensor globes.

    Actually, the scene from ROTJ places a TIV-like corvette at about 300m. This is clearly a re-use of the model (ala the Trek BOP) to represent another ship class, as the TIV itself may be scaled by its own features to ~64m in ANH. Scaling the ANH appearance to the ISD gives us ~750m or so, as does scaling the ISD to TIE fighters and bombers in TESB and ROTJ.
    Sorry you have no evidence that this is a different class of Tantive and no other scalings are available. And you ignore my point about Lambda shuttle scaling from ROTJ.

    First, because EAS, unlike the SWTC, is considered highly noncontroversial. Second, because they use a massive amount of canon data rather than selected examples.
    Actually both SWTC and EAS use non-canon and canon material in scaling but EAS can in no way compare with SWTC in depth analysisn.
    And speaking of "controversial" Dr. Curtis Saxton has never wrote essays like this: http://st-v-sw.net/STSWsdnet.html
    So you'll excuse me if I consider a man with Phd in astrophysics a tad more objective and reliable.

    There are problems with the GCS size, complicated mainly by the fact that two different models, with different proportions, are used interchangeably for the Enterprise D. However, the commonly used 640m length is the best figure available, based on scaling with other ships, deck counts, knowledge of the E-D's internal structure, etc.
    Yes yes but this remains the only scalings based directly on objects of known size. So if you are going to nitpick about ISD size whose 1600m figure is also commonly reffered to in official sources then apply the same standard to Galaxy class.

    Not typically, no. Now watch ROTS and tell me that there's any point to your claiming ST weapons produce fiery explosions.
    Not tippicaly? Whatch "The Die is Cast" or anly battle during the Dominion war. All those times we see the weapons produce fiery explosions.

    Ray shields don't stop torpedos. Or ejected warp cores. Or kamikazed Delta Flyers.
    Ejected warp cores and Delta Flyers can fit into the reactor shaft? I must have missed something. As for photon torpedoes prove that they can execute a sharp 90 degree turn as Lukes torpedoes did. Prove that they could even stand a chance since they don't have Force users.

    In all those cases? Firepower comparable to the MIllenium Falcon. This is, of course, ignoring the firepower displayed in "Skin of Evil," "The Die is Cast," "Balance of Power," "A Taste for Armageddon," "The Paradise Syndrome," "Rise," "Whom Gods Destroy," etc etc etc, all of which are dramatically higher than the firepower of the MIllenium Falcon.
    Of course none of those examples actually demonstrates anything. They are all based on optimistic interpretation of visual effets and dialouge. Sorry show me damage and then we'll talk.

    Well, I've seen ROTJ, and nothing the Falcon did matched the Delta Flyer. Dunno what you think the Falcon was doing, but it didn't perform anything exceptional.
    And when did we see Delta Flyer diving as fast as Falcon did just before it's antena was cut off by the wall?
    And being chased by fighters at the same time?

    Like I said... there have been a dozen or so failed attempts to destroy the Borg collective using a virus, and you're referencing one that's not ringing any bells. Are you ranting about the poor scripting of "Endgame" again? That wasn't a "computer virus" either. That was a "neurolytic pathogen," a sort of cyborg-virus.
    Yeah sure a "cyborg-virus". It attacked the machinery and it caused the destruction of the entire Transwarp hub therefore it is a computer virus.

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  24. And speaking of "controversial" Dr. Curtis Saxton has never wrote essays like this: http://st-v-sw.net/STSWsdnet.html
    So you'll excuse me if I consider a man with Phd in astrophysics a tad more objective and reliable.


    ...

    You did not just call Saxton a better man than Bernd Schnieder. YOU DID NOT.

    Bernd, at least, has a sense of humor. More than that, he was completely accurate with that. AND he also has a doctorate. His is in engineering. OHMYGOD! Maybe--just maybe--HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING! Oh, but wait...that can't be true. He's a Trekkie after all. And we all know Trekkies can't do anything other than whine and falsify data and all sorts of other stuff just because we like our fandom bett---ohwait, I just described Warsies, not Trekkies. Sorry.

    In all seriousness, though, Bernd does know what he's talking about. He uses the occasional non-canon source, yes, but he's not making a versus site, you must remember. In fact, from what I understand, he hates most of the Vs stuff and only gets along with Darkstar and ST-V-SW because Darkstar knows what he's doing too, unlike most Vs arguers, including Wong, Poe, and their cronies, as well as the vast number of Trekkies and Warsies on both sides who are just complete dumbnuts.

    (And just as an amusing anecdote: yesterday I briefly discussed the Empire vs. the Federation with a close friend of mine who is about as much of a Warsie as is possible. He agreed that the Empire would probably get its ass royally kicked by the Feds.)

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  25. Of course this was not organized by the Romulan and Cardassian goverments but by Tal'Shiar ans Obsidian Order. The Romulan goverment later signed a non aggression treaty while Cardassian goverment joined the Dominion. So one day Cardassian and Romulans are allies the next they are at war. This is the way real world operates and I don't see any reason why should Federation expect Romulan help.

    What, you think the Tal'Shiar doesn't act as the RSE expects them to? By and large, they do, and the Romulan policy of the peremptory strike is seen from ENT to TOS to TNG to DS9 to NEM.

    Welcome to realpolitik. If the Romulans see their own interest in helping the UFP, they will... and they've got quite a bit of interest toward that end in all hypothetical conflict proposed.

    SSD is approximatley 11 times the ISD but some sources put it at almost 12 times which equals the 19km fugure currently featured on star wars offcial page.
    Of course, the 19 km/1600m guess is inconsistent with the films, since we know very well it's ~11, not ~12.

    As for ILM not producing consistant scalings, since they made many of Star Trek films this doesn't really help anyone. Not to mention illustrious David Stipes and "dramatic scalings".

    Many, but not all.

    Actually at 4m width the SSD is indeed at least 20km in length. This is the scene where A-wings blow up those sensor globes.

    And? I'm not surprised. The SSD is portrayed highly inconsistently with respect to smaller ships. I mentioned the ~60 km scalings, didn't I?

    That's why I suggest using the much more easily compared (and more widely seen) ISD as your base meterstick. Comparing it vs small and medium craft (Tantive IV, Falcon, TIEs, etc) produces a range of values, most of which fall in the 700-800m range.

    Sorry you have no evidence that this is a different class of Tantive and no other scalings are available. And you ignore my point about Lambda shuttle scaling from ROTJ.
    The Lambda shuttle scaling allows for 1600m, although not quite requiring it. Ironically, however, the TIE fighters in the same scene provide for an ~800m ISD.

    The Tantive IV may be scaled directly from its escape pod, which is seen at the close and personal level.

    Actually both SWTC and EAS use non-canon and canon material in scaling but EAS can in no way compare with SWTC in depth analysisn.

    Both use non-canon material. However, SWTC is selective on its usage of canon, while EAS never misses an opportunity to rescale from the canon. Given the greater volume of ST canon, this makes EAS far more comprehensively written.

    And speaking of "controversial" Dr. Curtis Saxton has never wrote essays like this: http://st-v-sw.net/STSWsdnet.html
    So you'll excuse me if I consider a man with Phd in astrophysics a tad more objective and reliable.


    To the best of my knowledge, that's not exactly a controversial essay. Saxton is highly controversial, even within pure SW fandom.

    EAS is not. Just about the only major resource-website that claims EAS is suspect is SDN.

    Yes yes but this remains the only scalings based directly on objects of known size.No, it isn't.

    Would you like to go down the list? As it so happens, there are also enormous scalings of the GCS. There are available comparisons with known uses of (for example) the CCS, BOP, Attack Ship, Defiant, etc etc models. In Star Trek, we see every ship class compared with half the other classes a hundred times over.

    Is the 641 meter figure indisputable? No.

    However, it fits with most of the canon evidence. For example, a CCS is about a million tons... want to know what its bulk density should be according to your claims of what a GCS should be sizewise? Ouch.

    Not tippicaly? Whatch "The Die is Cast" or anly battle during the Dominion war. All those times we see the weapons produce fiery explosions.
    Just like SW, in other words... which leaves you no basis for criticism.

    Ejected warp cores and Delta Flyers can fit into the reactor shaft? I must have missed something. As for photon torpedoes prove that they can execute a sharp 90 degree turn as Lukes torpedoes did. Prove that they could even stand a chance since they don't have Force users.
    You missed where you conceded the points of accuracy in hitting a three meter target and we started talking about the Millenium Falcon flying through the DS2.

    Note that flying the trench mission is also within Delta Flyer acceleration ranges, incidentally.

    Of course none of those examples actually demonstrates anything. They are all based on optimistic interpretation of visual effets and dialouge. Sorry show me damage and then we'll talk.
    Optimistic?

    Hardly optimistic to meet the bar of exceeding Falcon firepower.

    And when did we see Delta Flyer diving as fast as Falcon did just before it's antena was cut off by the wall?
    Oh, raw speed?

    ...

    You fool, the DF averaged higher clock speeds in "Drive." Not that it really matters.

    And being chased by fighters at the same time?
    Not a real problem. We've seen the Delta Flyer's asteroid-dodging abilities, and it matches the Falcon's.

    For that matter, the light craft flown at the Academy (remember the lethal star-burst formation/maneuver) also qualify. The Scimitar's fighters could be driven through its own corridors - actually, that's small enough to go down the 3 meter wide ventilation shaft of the DS1, let alone the DS2's unfinished superstructure.

    And so on.

    Small maneuverable craft are not difficult to build.

    Yeah sure a "cyborg-virus". It attacked the machinery and it caused the destruction of the entire Transwarp hub therefore it is a computer virus.
    Incorrect. A computer virus is a program. The neurolytic virus was a bioengineered organism (designed by the Doctor, incidentally) designed to interfere with the Borg's organic-machine interfaces and disrupt signals - a very physical entity, in other words. One based on decades of intimate familiarity with the Borg.

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  26. Species 8472 would have no trouble with the Empire if they even came into contact and they might be willing to be allies but that's a very big if there. Neutrality though is almost assured.

    As for the Romulans and Cardassians. The civilian Cardassian government that was in power when the Dominion ships were first detected actually didn't join the Dominion, what happened was Gul Dukut joined the dominion and took over the Cardassian Union. The Romulans would help if they think it worth their while, at the very least the Federation would be able to deal with the Empire on its own so they might not see that much need but if the current Romulan government were looking for favours from the Federation an alliance would probably seem to be a pretty good way to get it.

    So you'll excuse me if I consider a man with Phd in astrophysics a tad more objective and reliable.
    For the most part all a degree or doctorate means in a debate like this is that a person has a degree or a doctorate.

    Credentials do have an importance but one should be careful when one relies on crendentials instead of evidence.

    Ejected warp cores and Delta Flyers can fit into the reactor shaft?The Delta Flyer could get a missile down that reactor shaft without too much trouble, a Warp Core could probably also fit too.

    I must have missed something.
    That much is obvious.

    As for photon torpedoes prove that they can execute a sharp 90 degree turn as Lukes torpedoes did.
    Why would they need to? Why not just fire the torpedo directly into the reactor shaft without going along the trench? The torpedo is shielded and smaller and a fighter so the first Death Stars defences aren't going to hold it off (and even if they could the shields of a Death Star probably wouldn't last long under Phaser and Photon or Quantum torpedo bombardment).

    Prove that they could even stand a chance since they don't have Force users.
    The Empire only had two force users so it isn't all that much of a problem. It also seems unlikely that a Force user is going to be able to stop a torpedo tracking into a reactor shaft.

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  27. What, you think the Tal'Shiar doesn't act as the RSE expects them to? By and large, they do, and the Romulan policy of the peremptory strike is seen from ENT to TOS to TNG to DS9 to NEM.
    Welcome to realpolitik. If the Romulans see their own interest in helping the UFP, they will... and they've got quite a bit of interest toward that end in all hypothetical conflict proposed.

    It doesn't matter what Tal'Shiar usually does. That time they were acting without the approval of their goverments. The Romulans had no intentions of joining the Federation in the fight until they were tricked into it. And even when the war was over some of their admirals and senators were involved in a conspiracy to annihilate the population of Earth.

    And? I'm not surprised. The SSD is portrayed highly inconsistently with respect to smaller ships. I mentioned the ~60 km scalings, didn't I?
    That's why I suggest using the much more easily compared (and more widely seen) ISD as your base meterstick. Comparing it vs small and medium craft (Tantive IV, Falcon, TIEs, etc) produces a range of values, most of which fall in the 700-800m range.

    First you admit that scalings using smaller craft are inconsistent but then you turn around and want to use some of them incidentally those that point to a smaller ISD and SSD. How convenient.

    The Lambda shuttle scaling allows for 1600m, although not quite requiring it. Ironically, however, the TIE fighters in the same scene provide for an ~800m ISD.
    At one point the Lambda class shuttle is obscured by the ship indicating that it indeed is equally distant from the camera. There is no such evidence for TIE fighters. They are likely much closer to the camera.

    The Tantive IV may be scaled directly from its escape pod, which is seen at the close and personal level.
    Dont lie. When we see the pod flying through space it is already very far away from the TantiveIV and no scalings are possible. The TantiveIV is 150m or more in length as proven by Falcon.

    To the best of my knowledge, that's not exactly a controversial essay. Saxton is highly controversial, even within pure SW fandom.
    Yeah right that's why he was chosen to write two books for Lucasfilm. The only people who consider him controversial is a handful of obsessed Trekkie fanboys who cannot get over the fact the ICS puts SW ships at hundreds of gigatons.

    Would you like to go down the list? As it so happens, there are also enormous scalings of the GCS. There are available comparisons with known uses of (for example) the CCS, BOP, Attack Ship, Defiant, etc etc models. In Star Trek, we see every ship class compared with half the other classes a hundred times over.
    When was Galaxy seen next to the Constitution class? And none of the other ships has a known size. They have been scaled off from Galaxy not the other way around. The Generations scaling remains.

    However, it fits with most of the canon evidence. For example, a CCS is about a million tons... want to know what its bulk density should be according to your claims of what a GCS should be sizewise? Ouch.
    What canon evidence? The only scalings next to an object of known size is Generations. And what's up with introducing the CCS when we have the mass of Voyager a ship which is ceartainly much more similar to Galaxy than 100 years older ship.

    Just like SW, in other words... which leaves you no basis for criticism.
    There is just no way you are for real. It was you who introduced the point that one can judge the yield based on the VFX effects. Want me to quote you?
    Here:"Look at the SFX, man. It's at most a low-grade fusion torp used to detonate the Death Star's reactor."
    So you just burried your own point. Concession accepted.

    You missed where you conceded the points of accuracy in hitting a three meter target and we started talking about the Millenium Falcon flying through the DS2.
    Note that flying the trench mission is also within Delta Flyer acceleration ranges, incidentally.

    Even with today technology we could hit a three meter target at 90,000km so that really isn't all that impressive. And you ignore the fact that there were distortion fields around the Death Star which decreased manuverability as is described in the novel. Not to mention heavvy hamming.

    Optimistic?
    Hardly optimistic to meet the bar of exceeding Falcon firepower.

    Still waiting for proof that Federation has a craft that is as small and manuverable as Millenium Falcon and packs equal firepower at the same time.
    Of course if the Federation is engaging a finished Death Star then we are talking about the addition of a very powerful Force user.

    Not a real problem. We've seen the Delta Flyer's asteroid-dodging abilities, and it matches the Falcon's.
    For that matter, the light craft flown at the Academy (remember the lethal star-burst formation/maneuver) also qualify. The Scimitar's fighters could be driven through its own corridors - actually, that's small enough to go down the 3 meter wide ventilation shaft of the DS1, let alone the DS2's unfinished superstructure.
    And so on.
    Small maneuverable craft are not difficult to build.

    Nobe of those examples match what the Falcon did when it entered the DS2. It was strafing close to the surface then sharply turned into the reactor shaft at the relative speeds of several hundred m/s. The Falcon changed it's speed vector by 90 degrees in about 20 frames. And I still await for proof that any of those craft carry equal firepower to Millenium Falcon.

    Incorrect. A computer virus is a program. The neurolytic virus was a bioengineered organism (designed by the Doctor, incidentally) designed to interfere with the Borg's organic-machine interfaces and disrupt signals - a very physical entity, in other words. One based on decades of intimate familiarity with the Borg.
    The virus attacked the machinery and not bilogical organisms therefore it was a computer virus your technobabble notwithstanding.

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  28. Who would that be?
    The Voth (who appear in the Voyager episode "Distant Origin"), can build huge ships at least a hundred miles across. We know they are capable of transporting a Intrepid-class starship.
    A huge ship like that must have a very resilient construction if it is to withstand acceleration.

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  29. Dont lie. When we see the pod flying through space it is already very far away from the TantiveIV and no scalings are possible. The TantiveIV is 150m or more in length as proven by Falcon.
    A model of the Tantive IV was built and had escape pods on it which we can measured directly.

    Yeah right that's why he was chosen to write two books for Lucasfilm. The only people who consider him controversial is a handful of obsessed Trekkie fanboys who cannot get over the fact the ICS puts SW ships at hundreds of gigatons.
    Why should anyone other than a rabid Warsie care what the non-canon ICS books say?

    Even with today technology we could hit a three meter target at 90,000km so that really isn't all that impressive.
    Do you have proof that we could do that now.

    I should probably also ask whether we could see a three metre target at 90 Mm as well with current technology.

    Still waiting for proof that Federation has a craft that is as small and manuverable as Millenium Falcon and packs equal firepower at the same time.
    Delta Flyer and the Runabouts are smaller and more manuverable so they wouldn't count, they also outgun the Falcon so yeah, there isn't any proof that the Federation has such a craft.

    Of course if the Federation is engaging a finished Death Star then we are talking about the addition of a very powerful Force user.
    Maybe, maybe not.

    The Emperor might be sitting at his Throne in the Star Wars galaxy while Darth Vader could be commanding a Super Star Destroyer somewhere else (and the empire only has two force users).

    Although even a powerful Force user isn't invinsible nor is a powerful force user going to be able to deflect a Photon torpedo or a phaser strike.

    The Falcon changed it's speed vector by 90 degrees in about 20 frames.
    Big deal, we've seen Federation ships do better than that.

    The Voth (who appear in the Voyager episode "Distant Origin"), can build huge ships at least a hundred miles across.
    Only people in backward countries use miles. That ship was probably about 8 km long which is quite large for a Star Trek ship but nowhere near Death Star size. Wouldn't suprise me if the thing could destroy a planet though.

    We know they are capable of transporting a Intrepid-class starship.
    True.

    A huge ship like that must have a very resilient construction if it is to withstand acceleration.
    Anything in the Star Trek galaxy would have to be strong. In the Star Wars galaxy where ships don't accelarate anywhere near as quickly there would probably not be any need for a structural integrity field but they'd need inertial dampeners so the crew doesn't die.

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  30. It doesn't matter what Tal'Shiar usually does.
    Sure it does.
    That time they were acting without the approval of their goverments.
    Officially, anyway. This was - at the time, anyway - their usual mode of operation, much like Section 31.
    The Romulans had no intentions of joining the Federation in the fight until they were tricked into it. And even when the war was over some of their admirals and senators were involved in a conspiracy to annihilate the population of Earth.
    No intentions? Not likely.

    The conspiracy to annihilate Earth is one of the pieces of evidence pointing exactly towards what the RSE does when it perceives threats - hits hard.

    First you admit that scalings using smaller craft are inconsistent but then you turn around and want to use some of them incidentally those that point to a smaller ISD and SSD. How convenient.
    Are inconsistent with regard to the SSD. Which is very true.

    Meanwhile, the ISD scalings are based on ships much closer in size (e.g., the TIV), and - while inconsistent to a factor of ~1.5 (hard and fast requirements range roughly from 750-1100m) - they're much better than the SSD scalings (requirements vary by a factor of 10, depending on scene.)

    At one point the Lambda class shuttle is obscured by the ship indicating that it indeed is equally distant from the camera. There is no such evidence for TIE fighters. They are likely much closer to the camera.

    In that very same scene, the shuttle is flanked by two TIE fighters. We have a remarkable body of evidence of TIE fighters/bombers launching from and also flying behind ISDs, putting the ISD firmly and consistently at ~700-800m.

    Dont lie. When we see the pod flying through space it is already very far away from the TantiveIV and no scalings are possible. The TantiveIV is 150m or more in length as proven by Falcon.

    The escape pods may be spotted directly on the model prior to launch - a positioning confirmed by the interior shots showing the droids' entry into the escape pods.

    Yeah right that's why he was chosen to write two books for Lucasfilm. The only people who consider him controversial is a handful of obsessed Trekkie fanboys who cannot get over the fact the ICS puts SW ships at hundreds of gigatons.

    He was chosen to write two books... reined sharply in while writing the second... and is blasted even on his own website, criticized from across the fanbase and by a number of LucasCorp employees, and his models remain controversial.

    Would you like to go down the list? As it so happens, there are also enormous scalings of the GCS. There are available comparisons with known uses of (for example) the CCS, BOP, Attack Ship, Defiant, etc etc models. In Star Trek, we see every ship class compared with half the other classes a hundred times over.

    When was Galaxy seen next to the Constitution class? And none of the other ships has a known size. They have been scaled off from Galaxy not the other way around. The Generations scaling remains.

    If you don't like the CCS, try the omnipresent Excelsiors... dwarfing the CCS in every single TOS-era film, dwarfed by the GCS in every DS9-era episode. You can look at Okudagrams, examine the consequences for various ships (e.g., the Oberth and Defiant, which are already underscaled in many scenes involving GCS)... the evidence for something in the close range of 641 meters long is simply impossible to ignore, which is why we use it as a yardstick.

    And then we can go the other direction, dealing with some anomalous deck numbers, and triple the size of all the ST ships as a result.

    What canon evidence? The only scalings next to an object of known size is Generations. And what's up with introducing the CCS when we have the mass of Voyager a ship which is ceartainly much more similar to Galaxy than 100 years older ship.
    Because the CCS - from its known TOS scalings - already has an exceptional density.

    Override those scalings (through all the known paths of scaling) and you have to double or triple its density... which is very problematic.

    There is just no way you are for real. It was you who introduced the point that one can judge the yield based on the VFX effects. Want me to quote you?
    Here:"Look at the SFX, man. It's at most a low-grade fusion torp used to detonate the Death Star's reactor."
    So you just burried your own point. Concession accepted.

    Concession?

    If the SFX are equivalent, then ST weapons have no problem accomplishing the mission. I'm glad to hear you finally accept that.

    Even with today technology we could hit a three meter target at 90,000km so that really isn't all that impressive.
    Actually, we can't do that on the fly with a guided missile in a combat situation. Sorry, try again. We could try flying a jet fighter through that trench, although the vacuum would make that hard.

    Even our best terminal-guided ICBMs aren't that great.

    And you ignore the fact that there were distortion fields around the Death Star which decreased manuverability as is described in the novel. Not to mention heavvy hamming.
    Hamming? You needn't be so critical of the actors.

    Do I ignore the fact? No. But I consider it not at all relevant.

    Still waiting for proof that Federation has a craft that is as small and manuverable as Millenium Falcon and packs equal firepower at the same time.
    Equal firepower... shuttle blasting a mack truck.

    Superior firepower... hand weapons blasting down pipelines.

    Of course if the Federation is engaging a finished Death Star then we are talking about the addition of a very powerful Force user.

    ... and?

    Nobe of those examples match what the Falcon did when it entered the DS2. It was strafing close to the surface then sharply turned into the reactor shaft at the relative speeds of several hundred m/s. The Falcon changed it's speed vector by 90 degrees in about 20 frames. And I still await for proof that any of those craft carry equal firepower to Millenium Falcon.
    Dude, that's nothing next to the Kolvoord Starburst. Read all about it. http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Kolvoord_Starburst

    You fly straight at each other at 80,000 kph, circle 10 meters from each other, and then fly apart. Much hairier turn in less time at over a hundred times the relative speed of the Falcon.

    The virus attacked the machinery and not bilogical organisms therefore it was a computer virus your technobabble notwithstanding.
    Anon, do you understand what a computer virus is? It's not a physical entity. We can bioengineer little critters that attack machinery now (waste-cleanup bacterium) but it doesn't turn them into computer viruses.

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  31. It doesn't matter what Tal'Shiar usually does.
    Sure it does.

    No it doesn't you stupid imbecile. The first strike was organized by the Tal'Shiar wich, as Obsidian Order, was not acting in accordance with it's own goverment which later signed a non aggression treaty.

    The conspiracy to annihilate Earth is one of the pieces of evidence pointing exactly towards what the RSE does when it perceives threats - hits hard.
    Yes you fucking moron so why then would it join the Federation in the fight instead of remaining on the sidelines. If the Federation is drastically weaker then it is a great risk to join the fight anyway if they are close let them blast each other.

    Are inconsistent with regard to the SSD. Which is very true.
    Meanwhile, the ISD scalings are based on ships much closer in size (e.g., the TIV), and - while inconsistent to a factor of ~1.5 (hard and fast requirements range roughly from 750-1100m) - they're much better than the SSD scalings (requirements vary by a factor of 10, depending on scene.)

    Still waiting for that scaling which puts the TantiveIV at 60m oir wathever.

    In that very same scene, the shuttle is flanked by two TIE fighters. We have a remarkable body of evidence of TIE fighters/bombers launching from and also flying behind ISDs, putting the ISD firmly and consistently at ~700-800m.
    Man what a fucking idiot you are. Don't you get how perspective works? IF the ship is obsucred by another ship then we know it is behind it and therefore can be used to generate an upper limit. TIE fighter were no obscured therefore they can only be used to generate a lower limit.

    The escape pods may be spotted directly on the model prior to launch - a positioning confirmed by the interior shots showing the droids' entry into the escape pods.
    And how do you know the pod hangars are the same size as the pods?

    He was chosen to write two books... reined sharply in while writing the second... and is blasted even on his own website, criticized from across the fanbase and by a number of LucasCorp employees, and his models remain controversial.
    Don't lie you fucking Trekkie fanboy. Where was he critisized by Lucas employies? Where is he blasted on his own webside you pathetic little Darkstars cocksucker? He is the author of two official ICS books and the only reason you are badmouthing him uis beacuse you are Trekkie fanatic which cannot separate fiction from real world.

    Would you like to go down the list? As it so happens, there are also enormous scalings of the GCS. There are available comparisons with known uses of (for example) the CCS, BOP, Attack Ship, Defiant, etc etc models. In Star Trek, we see every ship class compared with half the other classes a hundred times over.
    Yes you evasive little shit I would like to go down the list. Show me some scalings of Galaxy class against an object of known size.

    If you don't like the CCS, try the omnipresent Excelsiors... dwarfing the CCS in every single TOS-era film, dwarfed by the GCS in every DS9-era episode. You can look at Okudagrams, examine the consequences for various ships (e.g., the Oberth and Defiant, which are already underscaled in many scenes involving GCS)... the evidence for something in the close range of 641 meters long is simply impossible to ignore, which is why we use it as a yardstick.
    Too bad we never actually see the Enterprise in front of Excelsior to establish a lower limit.

    Because the CCS - from its known TOS scalings - already has an exceptional density.
    Override those scalings (through all the known paths of scaling) and you have to double or triple its density... which is very problematic.

    Who ever said anythig about rescaling the Constitiution you evasive little shit? We are talking about Galaxy class.

    Concession?
    If the SFX are equivalent, then ST weapons have no problem accomplishing the mission. I'm glad to hear you finally accept that.

    Jesus you really are a retarded motherfucker aren't you? You yourself just said that we cannot derive the yield from SFX in space.

    Actually, we can't do that on the fly with a guided missile in a combat situation. Sorry, try again. We could try flying a jet fighter through that trench, although the vacuum would make that hard.
    Even our best terminal-guided ICBMs aren't that great.

    I don't need to try again you undereducated moron since we already installed mirrors on the Moon which we can use to meausre Moonquakes using lasers. Guess what idiot the moon is 380,000km away.

    Hamming? You needn't be so critical of the actors.
    Do I ignore the fact? No. But I consider it not at all relevant.

    Bravo idiot! Instead of answering the point you concentrate on spelling and then state that "you don't consider it at all relevant". How can distortion that reduces manuverability not be relevant? How can jamming (and we know that Federation ships can be jammed by rotating EM field) not be relevant?

    Equal firepower... shuttle blasting a mack truck.
    Superior firepower... hand weapons blasting down pipelines.

    That is superior to A-wings blowing up 50m sensor globes? What an idiot.

    Of course if the Federation is engaging a finished Death Star then we are talking about the addition of a very powerful Force user.

    ... and?

    And the Federation doesn't have one you fucking moron .

    Dude, that's nothing next to the Kolvoord Starburst. Read all about it. http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Kolvoord_Starburst
    This one's for the books. What there is even remotely comparable to Millenium Falcon's manuver? They fly within ten meters of each other and vent plasma. Uuuuuuuh! The awesome manuverability of Federation ships. And they don't circle each other at 80,000kph they just fly past each other with no immediate course change.

    Anon, do you understand what a computer virus is? It's not a physical entity. We can bioengineer little critters that attack machinery now (waste-cleanup bacterium) but it doesn't turn them into computer viruses.
    Attack machinery? As in rip it apart and cause it to blow up in a few seconds? Only computer viruses could be transmitted so quickly and this is not the first time we've heard of simple computer virus threatning the Borg.

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  32. No it doesn't you stupid imbecile. The first strike was organized by the Tal'Shiar wich, as Obsidian Order, was not acting in accordance with it's own goverment which later signed a non aggression treaty.
    So you say. Is it not possible that the Romulan government actually did approve of the first strike and then when it failed decided that they'd be safer letting the Federation and Klingons fight it out with the Dominion and then just attack the weakened victor?

    Yes you fucking moron
    Stop fucking swearing.

    so why then would it join the Federation in the fight instead of remaining on the sidelines.
    Because it is in their interest to do so, whether it be making the fight more even or the victory more decisive they would probably much rather a power that despite having had several opportunities to elimate them has not done so than one which would invade them if possible.

    If the Federation is drastically weaker then it is a great risk to join the fight anyway if they are close let them blast each other.
    Good logic, but the Federation isn't drastically weaker so it doesn't seem like much of a risk.

    And how do you know the pod hangars are the same size as the pods?
    How do you know there are pod hangers?

    I don't need to try again you undereducated moron since we already installed mirrors on the Moon which we can use to meausre Moonquakes using lasers. Guess what idiot the moon is 380,000km away.
    By the time the laser beam reaches the moon it has spread out to the point at which it is a lot bigger than a few metres in diameter (in fact the laser spot size closer to a kilometre), most of the laser light does get wasted by that process but some of it does come back, enough for us to detect and to very accurately measure the distance from the Earth to the Moon.

    If you carpet bomb a large area of space you can hit something small even if you can't target it accurately which is how weapons in Star Wars are typically used.

    The Federation on the other hand aren't so backwards and can fire their weapons accurately over long distances in a single shot without letting any of the weapons fire miss the target.

    How can distortion that reduces manuverability not be relevant?
    Did the distortion reduce manuverability or did it merely fuck up sensors?

    How can jamming (and we know that Federation ships can be jammed by rotating EM field) not be relevant?
    It is relevant, but only so much as it would impede any Imperial ships in the area since Federation sensors are vastly superior to what the Imperials have (as the fact that a Star Destroyer near Hoth couldn't detect a rebel base).

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  33. No it doesn't you stupid imbecile. The first strike was organized by the Tal'Shiar wich, as Obsidian Order, was not acting in accordance with it's own goverment which later signed a non aggression treaty.
    Yes it does. We can expect the agencies like the Tal'Shiar to be in play.

    Yes you fucking moron so why then would it join the Federation in the fight instead of remaining on the sidelines. If the Federation is drastically weaker then it is a great risk to join the fight anyway if they are close let them blast each other.

    This is true. If the Federation looks to be ready to defeat the Empire handily (i.e., as the evidence suggests), then the RSE will just sit on its thumbs and maybe play vulture a bit.

    Man what a fucking idiot you are. Don't you get how perspective works? IF the ship is obsucred by another ship then we know it is behind it and therefore can be used to generate an upper limit. TIE fighter were no obscured therefore they can only be used to generate a lower limit.
    TIE fighters are obscured. We can see (on a couple occasions) them fly behind a bridge tower. Apparently you weren't on strek-v-swars.net when I posted the screencaps there.

    And when we see TIE fighters or bombers exit the hangar bay, we can gauge the relative distance of TIE and hangar (and thus perspective effects) very well. Which again gives a small ISD.

    And how do you know the pod hangars are the same size as the pods?
    The hangars aren't - they're actually slightly larger. However, the pods protrude, and thus can be seen. We've seen the TIV with some of its pods missing, as a matter of fact.

    Don't lie you fucking Trekkie fanboy. Where was he critisized by Lucas employies? Where is he blasted on his own webside you pathetic little Darkstars cocksucker? He is the author of two official ICS books and the only reason you are badmouthing him uis beacuse you are Trekkie fanatic which cannot separate fiction from real world.

    SDN angrily pointed to Pablo Hidalgo criticizing Saxton's whole school of thought on the DK comics forums. Learn to read your own cave, troll.

    Yes you evasive little shit I would like to go down the list. Show me some scalings of Galaxy class against an object of known size.
    Sorry, no can do in blog comments... just as you didn't actually show your claimed Generations scaling. You may wish to start with ST:FC's battle scene, the fleet shots from "Sacrifice of Angels," or the numerous appearances of the venerable Klingon battlecruiser (essentially unchanged over 225 years of screen time) in TNG, DS9, and VOY...

    ... etc.

    Too bad we never actually see the Enterprise in front of Excelsior to establish a lower limit.
    Ya fool, upper and lower limits from superposition aren't the only ways to scale. Like the very regular array from "Sacrifice of Angels." Etc.

    Who ever said anythig about rescaling the Constitiution you evasive little shit? We are talking about Galaxy class.
    Which, thanks to all the intermediary classes that appear with both, requires rescaling both.

    Jesus you really are a retarded motherfucker aren't you? You yourself just said that we cannot derive the yield from SFX in space.
    I said nothing of the sort... nor are we talking about SFX in space. We're talking about visible effects on targets.

    Actually, we can't do that on the fly with a guided missile in a combat situation.
    I don't need to try again you undereducated moron since we already installed mirrors on the Moon which we can use to meausre Moonquakes using lasers. Guess what idiot the moon is 380,000km away.
    That, dear boy, is neither missile, nor combat situation, nor on the fly. You need to work on your reading comprehension. That required quite a bit of careful optical work.

    Bravo idiot! Instead of answering the point you concentrate on spelling and then state that "you don't consider it at all relevant". How can distortion that reduces manuverability not be relevant? How can jamming (and we know that Federation ships can be jammed by rotating EM field) not be relevant?
    Because (a) it's not likely to significantly reduce ST ship maneuverability and (b) the stated factor by which maneuverability was reduced is less than the edge that ST ships have in sublight maneuverability.

    That is superior to A-wings blowing up 50m sensor globes? What an idiot.
    Yes, actually. A 50m sensor globe is a lot less impressive target than several kilometers of pipeline.

    And the Federation doesn't have one you fucking moron .
    Neither did Lando and Lobot.

    This one's for the books. What there is even remotely comparable to Millenium Falcon's manuver? They fly within ten meters of each other and vent plasma. Uuuuuuuh! The awesome manuverability of Federation ships. And they don't circle each other at 80,000kph they just fly past each other with no immediate course change.
    No, they close into formation, spin in a circle with 10m separation, and then exit. That's what creates the "ring and starburst lines" pattern seen on that page.

    I'll quote, incidentally: "After performing a spin, the ships involved enter formation to pass within 10 meters of each other, traveling 80,000 kph."

    I.e., tens of thousands of meters per second, hundreds of times what you've claimed the Falcon to be maneuvering in... with what the 10m separation easily tells you is a 20-25m wide circle.

    That's the sort of cornering capability that lets you trace the counters of an ISD bridge and draw on the bridge windows with your wings at Millenium-Falcon speed.

    Attack machinery? As in rip it apart and cause it to blow up in a few seconds? Only computer viruses could be transmitted so quickly and this is not the first time we've heard of simple computer virus threatning the Borg.
    No, it need not be software to be transmitted so quickly. Effectively speaking, we're talking about a nasty brand of nanite (biological). We know a lot about it... which you are ignoring in order to try and press forth an inaccurate claim.

    Name one time that a real computer virus has actually brought ruin to the Borg.

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  34. Anon, first off, you've crossed the line between semi-harmless fun--what I've been doing throughout this--to showing your true colors and revealing that you really DON'T give a crap what the evidence says. You're just a whiny little Warsie who likes Wars better than Trek--which I will NEVER understand as, on the whole, the writing in Trek is far superior and whatnot(not to mention most Trek shows are fun from the beginning to end, unlike half the movies...especially TESB. That dragged on to no end whatsoever.)--and thusly refuse to listen to reason. Guess what. We don't care about which fandom is actually better. See, we actually argue on evidence and whatnot. IF THE EVIDENCE POINTED TO THE EMPIRE BEING SUPERIOR ON THE WHOLE WE WOULD ADMIT THAT. But it doesn't. So deal with it, and shut up.

    I advise my fellow Trekkies not to bother with him anymore. This is getting to be too much for a fun nerdfest. He's taken it from fun into territory something like this should not stray into, and I, for one, feel we should not follow him. But that's just my opinion. Feel free to do as you feel best, of course.

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  35. I think that the following needs repeating:
    Guess what. We don't care about which fandom is actually better. See, we actually argue on evidence and whatnot. IF THE EVIDENCE POINTED TO THE EMPIRE BEING SUPERIOR ON THE WHOLE WE WOULD ADMIT THAT. But it doesn't. So deal with it, and shut up.
    You've really hit the nail on the head here so to speak.

    Those that think the Federation would win have the evidence on their side so they have no need to ignore it nor do we need to launch into personal attacks on our opponents (like using the term "fucking moron") but the Warsies OTOH have the evidence completely against them so they're just attacking people, making those who disagree with them feel unwelcome, exposing peoples' private information and in general trying to create a climate of fear (the name talifan makes a lot of sense) so that everyone will be too scared to oppose them and they win by default.

    This is the exact same tactic the Muslim fanatics are using to try to elimate freedom of speech in the west, making everyone who opposes them too scared to speak out (by killing those that do, so far there is no evidence of Warsies killing anyone but there is evidence of death threats). I could also compare their tactics to two movements of the last century which we were lucky enough to defeat.

    There are two different ways people argue, the first method is to decide on a conclusion (say Star Wars wins, Genesis is true, Global Warming isn't caused by humans, astrology works, etc) and then look for facts that support your conclusion while ignoring anything that refutes it. This is how politicians tend to do things. People who use this method can be very abusive since all they care about is getting people to believe what they say.

    The second method is to look at the evidence and then decide on the conclusion based on where the evidence leads taking into account how strong each piece of evidence is. This is how scientists tend to do things. People who use this method tend to be rather civil since they are after an intelligent discussion.

    Of course there's nothing to stop people using both of those methods at different times, for example Mike Wong uses the first method on the Versus pages while his creationalism pages could be considered an application of Method 2.

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